My first thought on pre-election terrorism is that terrorist attacks would have a different effect here than in Europe. Wasn't 80% or more of the population in most European counties against the Iraq war? So terrorism in Europe would encourage Europe to sever its connections with the US
(that appears to be what happened in Spain)

Here in the US it was closer to 50-50, and it seems to me pre-election terrorism in the US would help Bush (because Bush has a rep for doing anything to stop terrorism, such as holding POW's indefinitely and invading countries with no real link to Al Qaeda.)

Then there's the theory that Al Qaeda wants someone like Bush in power in the US to continue stirring hatred for the US (their #1 enemy) in the rest of the world...
wow, it must be tough to be in Al Qaeda, deciding where to attack next!

So I don't know what the fuck will happen, I just think it will have different effects on different counties.

I'm glad you posted this topic Justin. In an election year, I want more of this kind of thing on blogs. I want ideas we can kick around, and unfortunately this idea makes sense. Bush doesn't want us living in fear, right? Well, I don't feel real relaxed/secure about all the things the United States has done to become the most hated country.

Your War, Our Dead... and not just American lives Mr. Bush.

Justin, in Spain it is not only the possibility of attacks, but the idea that the government, while pandering to USA interests, set the country into the middle of a war fought both conventionally and unconventionally, caused a lot of unrest, made their country into a target, and revived the spectre of a protracted war and limited civil rights. Remember the Civil War and Franco dictatorship.

Here in the USA, though, a terrorist attack such as experienced there would only be confirmation of the fears upon this administration whole doctrine exists, and I can easily imagine FOX Network spinning it to Bush advantage; we would have another "war president" excuse on our hands, and just before an election it would be just the perfect thing for Bush – it would drown all other discussion on economy, health, the environment, corporate accountability and social security.

And, as a matter of fact, Bush has already managed regime change in Iraq, Afghanistan and Spain.

Justin, I had pretty much the same thought. This was a well-planned attack, and it was obviously meant to offset the polotical outcome. I don't think it's as much of a military strategy, to pull spanish troops out, as there might be motivations towards having a socialist party in power. Maybe they can get away with more, under their rule. Maybe it really only is, on a broader scale, an anti-american push. For sure, it's more than one of these, and it's only the first in a new wave of terrorist activity.

I think the most important thing for all democracy loving folk to realize is how important it will be to learn to communicate openly with people of other agendas. Anti-Americans, anti-globalists, and everything else anti-aliased into that realm where communication breaks down and wars break out.

I was against the war. But it is very wrong to say that you can vote for a Democrat (I will of course) or a Socialist in Spain and the terrorists will get the signal that you've "made up" with them and the Islamic world and the attacks will stop. These people are violence addicts that don't care who you vote for - they will not stop. They were attacking before the war and they will attack even if a country makes every foreign policy decision that could possibly appease them.

I didn't think there was any connection between Iraq and the 9/11 terrorists. And I still don't. But it is strange that every liberal who said there was no connection between Iraq and terror is pointing at Spain and saying "see, they bombed Spain because of the war." Why would the terrorists suddenly target a country only because of the war if they weren't connected to or didn't care about Iraq?

Hi,
No comment, just a link.
Faithfreedom
Very interesting site about the Islam with a good forum.

The reason for the opposition to the war in Iraq by those in Spain and other European nations was varied but one overwhelming reason was that they opposed a war that would kill innocent Iraqis. What I am trying to figure out is how the Socialist Party in Spain justifies pulling troops out by June and leaving behind an Iraq that would be even less secure in their absence and lead to more innocents being killed. The war is over and no mater what their feelings were about that war it seems to me that they would want to help all they could NOW to bring peace and stability to Iraq. Are European nations really so selfish as to leave the Iraqi people to be slaughtered by various Islamic terrorist just so they can stick it to George Bush and the American led “Occupation”? Are we to believe that Spain, France, Germany and others are somehow helping the Iraqi people by NOT helping to secure Iraq for the people? How?
What message will this send to Terrorist if by killing 200 innocent people they can force country’s to pull out of the Middle East? How will this departure of Spain from Iraq not be a victory for Terrorist?

"This is a response to the crimes that you caused in the world, and specifically in Iraq and Afghanistan, and there will be more if God wills it," – terrorist tape
Somehow in most of the reports the mention of “Afghanistan” is left out when describing why terrorist set off the 10 bombs in Spain.

The message to terrorists: Terrorism works...kill innocent people and weak countries will back down and pull out.

The response should have been anger towards the people who killed their countrymen, instead it was anger towards the government that supported ousting a dictator who killed hundreds of thousands of people. Only socialists can have that kind of logic. Western Europe lost it's will to survive.

anger towards the government is the proper reaction. it's the government's policies that created the situation that the terrorist reacted to in the first place.

diplomacy, not war. there is always compromise, but america refuses to see things any other way besides their own. maybe we should worry about something else besides "democracy" and oil. something like jobs, food, housing, and support for independant business.

which is why we need to do the same thing spain just did and let our government know we aren't going to settle for ignorancy and one-sided resolutions to problems that plague the world.

i personally think we need a change like spain's before people have to start worrying about doing something drastic to get what we want out of our government.

http://www.xsorbit2.com/users/eggburger3/index.cgi
Talk about all at my free forum

There is not always compromise. It's unrealistic and naive to think that murdering Islamo-fascists can be reasoned with.

In the letter claiming responsibility, they claimed they were settling old accounts. Bin Laden pointed to Spain and mentioned Al-Andalus in his last taped message. Referencing a time when Islam was predominant in Spain after it violently spread across Europe.

Terrorists wanted the west dead not for going into Iraq (we hadn't toppled Saddam pre-Sept 11), they want us all dead for what we represent, and for being "infidels". So says the Koran, and so the religious extremists follow.

one thing that will definately happen in the case of pre-election terrorism: many people will die, in a possibly brutal, terrifying, and painful way. this fairly simple fact is something that I find to be frighteningly easy to forget when one starts down the road of sociopolitical abstraction.

my 0.02

-fish

The only problem with terrorism to effect regime/political change is that it can only happen in countries where there is a choice.

Neither party is exactly offering a choice in terms of how to do with terrorism, fundamentalist religions and the Middle East. Is there a party advocating withdrawal from Iraq, the Middle East and cutting off support for Saudi Arabia and Israel? No.

So don't panic, peoples!

It's an Ironic twist of faith
Islamic conquests halted in Spain, now they have come back to reclaim the land they bitterly gave up. One must look at this with a grain of salt in there pupil, true the 200 or so lives lost is tragic but 200 seems trivial to the number of lives destroyed, maimed, and massacared by the Jew/American allaince, one Spain was soo foolishly ready to follow.

I'm probably the only person who cares, but there's 2 Lee's on this thread, so I'm going to start calling myself Lee P.

"lee sez (not me)":
The message to terrorists: Terrorism works...kill innocent people and weak countries will back down and pull out.

"Lee P. sez (me)":
So the people are supposed to re-elect a government that did things that 90% of the people disagreed with, just to prove the terrorists wrong? I think it was a coincidence that the terrorists and the people of spain agreed about what to do in Iraq, and in the election. Unfortunately, reasonable people can agree with terrorists on single issues. A perfect example is disliking Bush.

And come on, using phrases like "Jew/American alliance" is just going to piss people off and force Justin to shut down the thread.

Interesting take on the terrorist bombings. Incidentally this year has one of the most number of elections going on worldwide (http://www.ifes.org/eguide/2004.htm).

Alot of these countries were just as much against the war as there were those for it. If Spain is an indicator of just how much tipping power terrorism has in today's politics, we will probably see increased posturing on the part of other terrorists' organisations to influence the result.

Haha..I'll have to reply to Lee P. I know my opinions are unpopular on this site, so I understand you wanting to make the distinction! :)

You would be right if the numbers supported what you say. It's true that most Spaniards disagreed with that particular policy, but the Popular Party had a 10 point lead right before the bombing...election day was 2 days later and they made that up and passed. It was clear that it wasn't the policy of supporting the U.S. that caused the socialists to win, it was a reaction to the bombing. And that is what I think is horrible. Put yourself in the shoes of the terrorists. You can make 10% of voters change their minds by your actions, enough to secure a government more suitable to your liking.

And the Jew/American alliance crap is so typical of anti-war people. It invalidates your points. And you wonder why conservatives think anti-war protesters are un-American...it's not because they protest (a very American activity), it's because of that kind of rhetoric, marxist booths at the rallys, peace activists taking money from Iraq's IIS to sell U.S. intelligence, etc.

Ok, I was being overly-PC by worring about the "Jew/American" reference. I feel responsible for keeping the discussion out of the "flame-war" abyss because that wastes Justin's time, bandwidth, etc., but if other people want to use inflammatory language it's no skin off my back.

Back to the far more interesting topic of the Spanish election, I thought the reason most people gave for switching their alliance at the last minute was the way the government withheld info that implicated Al Qaeda in the hours after the attack. Politicizing a terrorist act seems like a perfectly valid reason for voting against them.

But from over here in the US it is pretty much impossible to figure out the hour-to-hour thinking of the Spanish people, so I doubt we will know what happened for a while.

an interesting aside, maybe meaningless: I saw a hit on my site in my referrer logs, originating from this thread, by a computer from this institution:

http://www.tcps.state.tx.us/

I find that interesting. sorry for being OT.

-fish

My earlier comment on the "Jew/American" problem was not inteded to be inflammatory,but the ugly truth the U.S "donates" roughly 3 billion dollers a year to the richest non-oil producing state in the middle east why? considering the fact the America has enough money problems.Also Spain is not important here what is important is this was just a testing ground for
Al Qaeda and other networks. They have swayed political oppinion in a Nation, regardless of what you may think no one will deny that the bombings had no effect. I'm not a modern day Machiavelli but I will not be surprised if the next attack from Al Qaeda comes just before the U.S presidential vote.

I truly wonder why everyone seem to forget the simple fact, that the spanish people gave the terrorists what they wanted: pulling Spain out of Iraq. Fighing terrorism is what Bush does, and what Spain used to do. Giving in to terrorism this way only makes it stronger. "Your war, our dead" is a naive statement. The decision of France, Germany, and now Spain, could be our dead, too. Or at least parts of the world already under the strong thumb of the neo-fascist muslims will be the victims.

Ideally people would understand, that we can only achieve true peace if we go through war first. I do not understand how many people seem to re-write history by now saying that Afghanistan had no link to Al Qaeda. What? Excuse me! Al Qaeda had camps in Afghanistan, and the Taleban knew about it. And now Iraq, well, it's a well known fact that Saddam sent money to support Palestinian terrorists who blew themselves up along with Israeli men, women and children.

It's a sick world we live in when facts are twisted, morals forgotten, and doors shut to parts of the world that truly do need our aid. It's not always money, sometimes it's might. I'm not an American, but I am thankful to the states for actually making a difference in the world and getting rid of first the Taleban, and then next Saddam Hussein. No thanks to A LOT of people who's favorite word is "Paz" or "Peace".

To prince...America gives bilions around the world to many countrys...granted it's not billions in this case, but we are the largest donor to the palestinians as well.

Could America be giving large sums of money to support the only democratic, free, non-corrupt government in the entire Arab world? Maybe..or would you suggest they stop that and give money to Syria and Iran instead?

Not that anti-semites ever benefit from education, but I suggest a bit of reading about the Inquisition, expulsion, and Crusades might yield more information about "massacres" of innocents. But why bother?

I would also suggest that this rhetoric is indeed indicative of an entire strain of leftists who trot out unreconstructed anti-semitism in the guise of anti-Zionism. I think you will find many who oppose the war, who aren't fans of G.W. Bush, who want to see justice for the Palestinian people, and who are not anti-semites.

American's are being lied to over and over again Bush is always trying to instill fear in peoples hearts, where are the WMD's? no one knows and oh yaa Lee nice one, America gives Billions to other nations only when it benefits them. For example The U.S government recently gave South Africa Billions to figh AIDS only problem is it's in the form of Low-Grade Animal medication that's intended to be a testing ground for AIDS victims in the U.S and once the five or so years is up and the medication proves successfull it comes back home, so dont try to tell me America is the worlds Jesus. And some people may think i'm anti-Jew infact i like the "real" jews by that i mean the orthodox not the Americanized dogs who come with rubber bulluts what an oxymoron "rubber bulluts, objects moving at 50m/s, i'v taking enough physics courses to know a twinky going that fast will do some damage so shut the anti-semetic bull and face the facts.

The American government is the true enemy of the world that's why everbody hates them.
Just hoping Kerry can kick "Bushneck" (replace "Bush" with favorite color most likey red).

If only more Americans can see people like you supporting Kerry. There would be a Bush landslide victory. Please contribute to every blog possible for the sake of our country.

"Your war, our dead."

Hmm. Too bad Spain wasn't this isolationist years and years ago. Perhaps then they would not have invaded South America and they would not have brutally subjugated all the inhabitants there.

Today, there is an entity that wages war by killing as many innocent civilians as possible. And Spain turns away from them in fear, while pointing the finger at other victims.

Clearly, Spain is once again making another historical mistake.

To the people who say that basically the Spaniards caved in:

If bin Ladin said he supports breathing air would you stop breathing and die?

That's about as much sense as your "I'm tougher than the terrorists" rhetoric makes

But Spaniards are tougher than the terrorists. For the most part, Spain has an epic and noble history that proves this point. Spaniards are too honorable and freedom-loving to point fingers.

Politics shmolitics! Pass the tacos.