deeposin' as part of my lawsuit against the city of san francisco for false arrest, i was deposed.i was asked a series of questions by a lawyer from the city attorney's office. i was to answer them truthfully, and i was counselled by my lawyers: if i didn't know an answer, but might remember, i was to say, "i don't remember now" (in so many words), so that i couldn't be so easily challenged adding things to the record later.
i was told to supply no more information than what was needed to answer the question, something, my lawyers joked, i was likely to have a hard time with.
notable moments:
inquiry re: notes | notebooks | torches
most in larger font size and alternative colour.do skim down to the torches part - the attorney from the city accuses me of "trying to jerk his chain."
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
JUSTIN HALL,
Plaintiff,
-vs- CASE NO. C 96-3038 MMC-ENE
CITY AND COUNTY OF
SAN FRANCISCO, et al.,
Defendants.
________________________/
DEPOSITION OF:
JUSTIN A. HALL
Wednesday, August 20, 1997
Reported by: HANNAH KAUFMAN & ASSOCIATES
Certified Shorthand Reporters
JULIE KAUFMAN 472 Pacheco Street
C.S.R. NO. 8889 San Francisco, California 94116
__________________
(415) 664-4269
I N D E X O F E X A M I N A T I O N S
Examination by: Page:
Mr. Sandoval 5
-o0o-
I N D E X O F E X H I B I T S
(No exhibits were offered.)
2
BE IT REMEMBERED that, pursuant to Notice
of Taking Deposition, and on Wednesday, August 20,
1997, commencing at the hour of 9:35 a.m. thereof,
at the OFFICE OF LOUISE H. RENNE, City Attorney of
San Francisco, 1390 Market Street, Sixth Floor, San
Francisco, California 94102, Before me, JULIE L.
KAUFMAN, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for
the State of California, personally appeared
JUSTIN A. HALL,
called as the plaintiff herein; and the said
plaintiff, being by me first duly sworn, was
thereupon examined and testified as is hereinafter
set forth:
- - -
A P P E A R A N C E S:
CAPITINA & ROBINSON, represented by
MICHAEL F. CAPITINA, Attorney at Law, 372 Castro
Street, Mountain View, California 94041, appeared
as counsel on behalf of the plaintiff, JUSTIN A.
HALL.
TAMBURELLO, HANLON & WAGGENER,
represented by TONY TAMBURELLO, Attorney at Law,
214 Duboce Street, San Francisco, California 94103,
appeared as counsel on behalf of the plaintiff,
JUSTIN A. HALL.
OFFICE OF LOUISE H. RENNE, City Attorney
3
of San Francisco, represented by JOSEPH SANDOVAL,
Deputy City Attorney, 1390 Market Street, Sixth
Floor, San Francisco, California 94102, appeared as
counsel on behalf of the defendant, CITY AND COUNTY
OF SAN FRANCISCO.
- - -
JUSTIN A. HALL, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:EXAMINATION BY MR. SANDOVAL
MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Good morning, Mr. Hall. Just for formality's sake, please give us your full name for the record.
A. Justin Allyn Hall.
Q. And as I'm sure you are aware, we are taking -- I am taking your deposition this morning. My name is Joe Sandoval. I represent the city and the other defendants in the case. Let me just mention a couple of things, and then we'll get into the substance of the deposition.
What I am going to be doing today is asking you questions, obviously, to which you will be providing answers. Your attorneys, Mr. Capitina and Mr. Tamburello, who are here, may have things to say as well.
All of the things that we talk about today will be taken down by the court reporter, and at the end of the deposition, everything that's said will be typed up in a little booklet that you can read. And it'll be a transcript, and you can actually read the questions and answers.
Everything you say here is under oath just as if you were testifying in court in front of a judge and/or a jury.
Do you understand that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. At the end of the deposition, not today, but when the transcript is prepared, you will have an opportunity to review the transcript, and if there are any errors in the transcript, you have the right to change your answers. But I want to caution you now that if you do change your answers in the transcript, and if they are considered material changes, we can comment on that at trial, and that could adversely affect your credibility or how a jury assesses your credibility.
The reason I am giving you this whole prelude here is if in the course of a deposition, you give me an answer, and then later on, you discover, you know, that's probably wrong, you need to change it, do it today, okay, if you can. Make the correction today if you can rather than wait till later. That's just a caution that I offer for you.
The second thing I want to mention is you have to answer in words, audibly, because the court reporter can't translate a shake of the head or a nod of head. So if you give an answer, please use words.
Do you understand that?
A. Yes, as opposed to grunts.
Q. Right, grunts or nods or whatever. Please answer in words.
If you don't understand my question, if there's anything about my question that's unclear, please tell me, and I will try to ask it again or ask it differently so that you do understand it. Because if you answer, I'm going to assume that you understood it.
Okay?
A. Yes.
Q. And then please don't guess at an answer. Simply because I ask a question doesn't mean you have an answer for it, and I don't want you to feel like you have to answer a question just because I ask it.
What I want to know is what you know, not what you think might have happened or could have happened or should have happened or in some other world happened. I just want to know what you know, and if you don't know, please tell me that you don't know.
Okay?
A. Yes.
Q. Finally, if at any time you need to take a break, want to get water, want to go to the bathroom, just say so.
MR. CAPITINA: Or if you wish to speak to me at any point in time, or Mr. Tamburello, feel free at any time to take a break, and we can go outside and discuss anything that you feel is necessary.
THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you.
MR. SANDOVAL: Okay. All right. So with that, let's begin here. Let me just get a little background so I can kind of put you in the larger picture here.
Q. Tell me where you live now, please.
A. I am currently a student, and so I am visiting San Francisco, and I will be residing at Swarthmore College in Swarthmore, Pennsylvania beginning September.
Q. And what -- what -- what year?
A. I'm going into my final year of college.
Q. Your senior year of college at Swarthmore?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Do you have any plans to -- as you sit here now to do any other schooling after you graduate from Swarthmore?
A. I believe none at this time.
Q. Let me ask the question in a slightly different way.
What do you plan to do when you get out of school?
A. Freelance write and consulting with regards to computers.
Q. Consulting in hardware, software, both?
A. Internet development, Internet publishing.
Q. Now, let's see. Do you have any family out here in California or San Francisco?
A. I have a stepbrother, his wife and two lovely children. I have a half sister, her three lovely children and her husband, and another half sister in the Bay Area.
Q. Any of these folks live in San Francisco?
A. One lives in San Francisco. Two live north of the city.
Q. Have you talked to any of them about this case?
A. I have talked to my stepbrother about the case.
Q. What's his name?
A. George Cotsirilos.
Q. Can you spell that, please?
A. C-o-t-s-i-r-i-l-o-s.
My family -- my two sisters, my two half 9 sisters were, as well, incidentally informed, but Mr. George Cotsirilos bailed me out of jail.
Q. He's your stepbrother, right?
A. He is my stepbrother.
Q. He lives here in the city?
A. He lives in Berkeley.
MR. SANDOVAL: And can I ask either one of you gentlemen something? I don't want to get into the details of where he lives and all that. If I need to contact him, will you provide me with his address?
MR. TAMBURELLO: Sure.
MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Now, when you say your two half sisters know incidentally about it, do you mean you just told them the fact that you were arrested but haven't gone beyond that?
A. Beyond that?
Q. Let me ask it another way rather than put words in your mouth here.
As far as your half sisters are concerned, what did you tell them about the circumstances of this arrest and your involvement with the arrest?
A. I described to them the fact that I saw a protest, was arrested and served time, and then that I had a resulting arrest record and that I was initiating legal proceedings to eradicate that10 record. And I believe last -- two nights ago, I informed them that I was being deposed by attorneys for the city.
Q. Is that the sum and substance of any of the conversations -- sorry. Let me ask it again.
Is what you have just told me the sum and substance of the extent of your conversations with either of your half sisters about the case?
MR. CAPITINA: I'd object on that. I mean he just indicated to you what he spoke to you about. I mean, obviously, there may have been other words or other substance regarding what that happened. What exactly are you asking?
MR. SANDOVAL: That's what I am asking.
Q. I want to basically know everything you told them about the case beyond what you have already said here.
A. That is what I recall telling them at this time.
Q. Did you describe for them, in any more detail than what you have told me here, how it was you came to be arrested?
A. Immediately following my arrest in 1995, I was forced from jail to make phone calls to my family to inform them. And upon my release, I elaborated the events, in 1995 June, to my family.11
Q. When you say your family, who do you mean?
A. I mean my stepbrother, my sisters, my mother in Chicago.
Q. All right. So let me just stick with your stepsisters. What I want --
A. Half sisters.
Q. Half sisters. What I want to do is take you through those conversations. So let me just start with the half sisters --
MR. CAPITINA: Only if you recall.
MR. SANDOVAL: Q. -- and ask you again.
Do you recall anything else that you told either of them about how it was you came to be arrested beyond what you have already told me a minute ago?
MR. TAMBURELLO: You know, can I say something?
MR. SANDOVAL: Sure.
MR. TAMBURELLO: You know, I am a criminal defense lawyer, so I -- I -- I just don't understand some of this process.
If you are asking him what happened, I think that might be a lot easier. I don't know if he knows exactly what he told each and every person. And if you are going to stick him with the idea of, well, you said you told them this, you said you told them that --
MR. SANDOVAL: Hold on. Hold on.
MR. TAMBURELLO: I think it's vague is what my objection is.
MR. SANDOVAL: I understand what you are saying. I think Mr. Hall seems to be a reasonably intelligent young man, and if he doesn't understand, he can tell me. I want to know -- if he doesn't know, he can tell me. I just want to know what he said to his half sisters about the case. I am entitled to that. There is no privilege that applies.
MR. CAPITINA: He's indicated to you, Mr. Sandoval, what he told. He told them about the arrest. Now, are we going to go into what he told his sister and then what happened? I mean it seems like it's very redundant.
MR. SANDOVAL: Well, it may seem redundant to you, but I'm entitled to ask it. So I'd like to find out --
MR. CAPITINA: Mr. Sandoval, just to indicate, if we go through, and he testifies, we are not going to go over it twice. A lot of these questions are going to be asked and answered, and that objection is going to be applied.
MR. SANDOVAL: Look, anything he says to13 anyone about this case, except for his attorneys, I am entitled to go into.
MR. CAPITINA: I understand.
MR. SANDOVAL: You are not entitled to instruct your witness not to answer.
MR. CAPITINA: I am entitled --
MR. SANDOVAL: Well, fine.
MR. CAPITINA: -- if I see it fit.
MR. SANDOVAL: Fine. If -- if -- all right. Look, I'm not going to argue with you. If you want to instruct him not to answer, you do so. Okay? I'm not going to argue the merits of it. I am just going to take my deposition. You do what you need to do. I'll do what I need to do.
MR. CAPITINA: Very good.
MR. SANDOVAL: All right.
Q. So anyway, again, I want to come back -- what I want to know is can you tell me what else you said to your half sisters about how it was you got arrested other than what you have already told me so far? Is there anything else that you can remember about what you said to them about that?
A. At the time I was arrested, it was the most significant event of that period of my life, and so I told the story of my arrest to many of my familiars, my family and my friends. I cannot at this time recall, in particular, details that were shared with one versus another party.
Q. Okay. Again, let me just ask you: As far as your half sisters are concerned, do you recall anything that you told them about what you were doing or at the time of the arrest?
A. I can tell you now the story that I told -- that I -- that I recall at this time telling to people in 1995.
Q. Okay. Who are these people you are referring to?
A. The people I mentioned earlier, my familiars, my family and my friends.
Q. Okay. Tell me what you told them.
A. I told them that I had been with my friend, Howard Rheingold, in Marin County. We were working, and I was returning to the city after a day of working. I came to Safeway on Market to purchase some groceries. This is the Safeway at Market and 14th or Church --
Q. Church?
A. -- I believe, yes. I pulled into that Safeway. I was prepared to buy groceries, to return to my house nearby. At that time, exiting the car, I observed flashing police lights. I heard chants. And I took my note pad, which I have15 with me, as you have observed. I took my note pad and a pen, and I ventured toward the sound of the protest being intrigued by the events.
I noticed at that time, as well, a number of police assembling a noticeable distance from the people protesting. I followed the protestors at a distance myself. I was following in the street. A policeman, whose badge number I did not record, observed me to remain on the sidewalk in a rather -- in a rather insistent tone, so I remained on the sidewalk as he'd instructed.
We round -- the group of protestors rounded the corner. I rounded the corner behind them. The police rounded the corner behind me. I was at that time standing at some distance from the protestors who were in the street. I had remained on the sidewalk as instructed by the police officer.
At that time, a line of police formed between me and the wall of the buildings on that sidewalk. Officer K. Martin approached me, and at the top of his lungs, in a rather animal tone, gestured (indicating) with his night stick and insisted that I enter the street. I recalled to Officer Martin that I had been previously instructed by another officer to remain on the sidewalk, and Officer Martin again shouted at me and pushed (indicating) at me in the chest with his night stick and forced me out into the street.
I was then a part of a surrounded crowd. There were a perimeter of policemen preventing me from leaving physically. I inquired as to leaving and was told that I should wait, there was nothing happening --
MR. CAPITINA: This is too far. I think that this has gone into a narrative. I think we need some question and answer at this point. The question was what you told his step sister.
MR. SANDOVAL: I'm assuming that's what he's telling me.
MR. CAPITINA: Let's make sure we are in on the same question.
THE WITNESS: Yes, this is -- this is the -- the story. I was then -- I was then within this perimeter of policemen. I inquired to leave. I was not allowed to.
The crowd had moved from chanting about the death penalty, Bosnia, Tibet, Serbian/Croatian justice and was now chanting, "Let us disperse. Let us disperse. Let us disperse."
The police, rather alarmingly, were -- I found to be assuming more and more and more of a17 militaristic stance, widened feet, batons up (indicating). This is now a period of approaching two hours. The crowd is now singing greatest hits by the Police, Led Zeppelin -- the "Police" being a band -- Led Zeppelin and television theme songs from television shows.
People who sit down are cuffed with plastic behind their backs, led away. Then they begin lining us up and filing us through. Someone mumbles something very quickly to me about you are being something for something of something. I am --
MR. CAPITINA: Slow down a little bit. You are getting ahead of the court reporter.
THE WITNESS: I was then cuffed with plastic behind my back until the circulation was cut off to one of my fingers, Polaroided (phonetic) and put on a Muni bus, having to sit on my hands and wait for the rest of the prisoners to be filed onto the Muni bus until it was full and we could drive off and wait outside of 8th and Bryant for another interminable, unexplained amount of time, until I was escorted into a cell, overcrowded cell, overcrowded holding cell.
Then having my personal effects removed from me, being escorted into a second holding cell, overcrowded, and then being put into a large concrete holding tank with a number of drunk people and one gentleman who monopolized the pay phone talking about -- how do you say this -- you better not mess with them tripping bitches. He kept talking about that. There was some guy doing crazy things with the toilet. It was just pretty weird.
And then I was processed, fingerprinted, along with 278 other people --
MR. CAPITINA: Let's -- I am -- that's far enough. This is just a narrative, and I think we are going to insist on some question and answer.
MR. TAMBURELLO: And actually, I think the record will be very clearly reflected that this is what he told his familiars and family members during a period of time.
So it is a narrative, and I think that that, Mr. Sandoval, is what you wanted to get. So that's what we have at this point.
MR. SANDOVAL: Yes. Again, I -- I -- my question was only just tell me what you told them. And if you told them all of this stuff, then tell me, please. I mean -- I am sure we are going to be going over some of this again as we get into the circumstances of the arrest, but my question to you -- and I'm assuming that's what you're responding to. My question to you is just tell me what you told them. And if this is the whole story you told them, then please tell me --
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. SANDOVAL: -- just give me the story.
MR. CAPITINA: Just -- just -- just tell him in general terms. You don't need to say -- just what you recall. Now, everything you say here, it's being -- I'd like to take a break at this time.
(Recess taken.)
MR. SANDOVAL: Okay. Ready? All right. So anyway, come back to my question again.
Q. You were in the process of telling me --
A. Yes. So I was in a concrete holding cell. I was --
Q. I'm sorry. Let me just finish my question. Then you can answer it. You probably already know what it is.
You were in the process of telling me what you told your half sisters about the case and --
A. No, I was in the process of telling you what I told a general group of my familiars.
Q. Okay. Including your half sisters?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. All right. Fine.
So have you finished your answer, or do you have more to tell me?
A. After I was processed, I was -- during the processing, I was able to witness a number of extreme situations between prisoners and police, one extreme situation between prisoners and police.
I was then taken to a cell. Along that walk to the cell, I was whistled at more than once. I was then in the cell with 18 beds and quarter- inch slabs of baloney and steel picnic tables and a toilet that, if you wanted to drink water, you had to --
(Discussion off the record.)
[this is where i talked about staring in the shitter. those may have been my exact words, but i doubt it. maybe i was that frank.]
THE WITNESS: Quarter-inch slabs of baloney, steel picnic tables; the Price Is Right, which is a very strange thing to watch in jail, and a toilet that, if you wanted to get a drink of water -- have you been to jail? If you want to get a drink of water in jail, you have to lean over the bowl -- the sink is behind the bowl -- so that you are looking at prisoner excrement while you are trying to drink.
Anyway, then I spent some time there, called my family, explained I was in jail and was bailed out for $5,000.
MR. SANDOVAL: Q. This was your stepbrother who bailed you out, is that right?
A. Yeah, and Mastercard.
Q. Did you tell your familiars anything else other than what you have told me?
A. What I've imparted to you is the general story of what happened. Depending on the audience, I tailored the story with specific information that they would be more inclined to interest.
Q. Like what? Give me an example.
MR. TAMBURELLO: I object. Because that's vague. In other words, you are going to have to ask each and every person what was said. I mean I think it's --
MR. SANDOVAL: I don't think so.
Let me just say this: I don't want you to tell me what you told your attorneys, but you just told me that depending on the audience, you would --
MR. CAPITINA: Only if you specifically have a specific recollection.
THE WITNESS: I don't have a specific recollection, but I can tell you, for example, some of my young friends, I might have illustrated more the horrors of jail and the processing tedium, whereas for adults who are more acquainted with the legal system, I assume they know these things.
MR. SANDOVAL: Q. All right. So is that -- that's everything you recall telling your familiars about this incident involving you; is that a fair statement?
A. That is the general story that I recall imparting in 1995.
Q. I understand that. I just want to know is there any more that you recall imparting other than what you have already told me?
A. At this time, that is the general narrative that I recall imparting.
Q. Okay.
A. There are sections that -- for example, the day after I was arrested, I was pulled over for driving a car with a broken headlight. Police officer said, "Oh, you were just arrested for arson." And I thought, wow, I'm in the computer now. I don't know if it was the day after, but it was within -- you know, within a few days after the arrest.
Q. Okay. All right.
Now, you were arrested June 26th, '95, right? That was the date of the arrest?
A. To the best of my recollection.
Q. Is that the only time you have been arrested?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me go back to the beginning, if you will.
At the time of this arrest, June 26th, '95, were you a resident -- were you living in San Francisco? Were you just visiting?
MR. CAPITINA: I'd object on relevance grounds, but you can answer the question.
THE WITNESS: I was a student. I was here for the summer.
MR. SANDOVAL: Q. You were here working for the summer?
A. Yes.
Q. And where were you working at?
A. I was working as a freelance journalist, and I was working with the aforementioned Howard Rheingold.
Q. Where were you working?
A. I was working out of my house as a freelance journalist, and I would travel to his house to work with him.
Q. And who is Mr. Rheingold?
A. Mr. Rheingold is the author of numerous books. He was, prior to that date, the executive editor of a magazine that I worked at. He has since been the founding editor-in-chief and, I believe, C-E-O of a company called Electric Minds, and he is a -- he is one of the noted authorities on virtual communities, how to build community in computer environments.
Q. Now, when you say back in '90 -- summer of -- yes?
MR. CAPITINA: I think he was just trying to indicate '95.
MR. SANDOVAL: Right. Okay. Let me just bracket it here.
Q. The arrest in this case took place June 26th, '95. When did you actually arrive in San Francisco to work for that summer?
A. I do not recall at this time.
Q. When did you leave San Francisco?
A. I do not recall at this time.
Q. Give me a ballpark. I don't need an exact date.
A. I came in June, and I left in August. I was on summer break from college.
Q. And where were you living during that summer?
A. I lived in various places during that summer.
Q. Were you staying with friends?
A. I stayed with friends. I house-sat for friends.
Q. All right. So tell me where you remember living during that summer.
MR. CAPITINA: I would again object as to relevance to this lawsuit of where he was living.
But if you can recall, you can answer the question.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall addresses.
MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Do you recall neighborhoods?
A. Yeah, the Mission District and the Panhandle. Panhandle of Golden Gate Park, I guess.
Q. Right. Whatever places you lived during that summer, what was the --
A. Let me say -- I said I do not recall addresses. I do not recall addresses at this time. They are things that I could look up.
Q. Like what?
A. I could just look up in my notes, or I could call my friends and say where, where was -- what was the address of your apartment?
Q. Okay. Did you keep notes, by the way, during the summer of '95 --
A. Sporadically.
Q. I am sorry. Let me finish my question.
Did you keep notes of the things you did and observed during that summer?
A. Sporadically.
Q. And when you say sporadic, what does that mean?
A. It means when I was inclined to write them.
Q. And do you still have those notes?
A. Somewhere in my archives of old piles of paper.
Q. Any of those notes committed to computer disk?
A. During that time that I was -- I had more than one way of keeping notes so that I would either be keeping notes on the computer or keeping notes on paper. And so from that period, there might be notes in either format in any one of four computers and three collections of papers.
Q. If I were to ask you then to look for your notes, whether in handwritten form or typed form or on computer, you could do that?
A. I could look for them, yes. As for coming up with a coherent presentation of notes from the summer of 1995, that is to be doubted.
Q. What does that mean?
A. It means that my note taking at that time was not very organized, methodical or likely encounterable at this point because it's loose and it's scattered.
Q. Scattered geographically?
MR. CAPITINA: Again, I am going to object to this line of questions. If you are asking him whether or not -- I believe he answered the question. This has nothing to do with this case as far as how he keeps notes. So I'd like to get back to the basis of whether or not -- I believe your line of questioning was whether or not he has notes regarding -- I believe you are asking about this incident, I take it.
MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Did you date your notes at the time you wrote them?
A. Sometimes. I dated them -- I believe I dated them the night of the arrest.
Q. In any event, I am not asking you now what these notes look like or whatever, but let me ask you this question: In whatever form these notes might be, handwritten, computer, scattered, sporadic, however you want to characterize them, have you destroyed any of these notes?
A. No, I have not destroyed any of these notes.
Q. Okay. All right.
And you have the capability, if asked, to look for these notes?
MR. CAPITINA: Objection. What do you mean by capability? That's vague and ambiguous.
MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Do you understand my question?
MR. CAPITINA: Wait. I want -- we would like a clarification whether or not --
MR. SANDOVAL: He's the one who is answering. If he understands, he can answer it.
THE WITNESS: Do I have the capacity to look for these notes?
MR. SANDOVAL: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Well, let me put it this way: The notes could be in Swarthmore, Pennsylvania, Chicago, Illinois, or San Francisco, California. They could be in a number of houses, boxes. And so I can look for them if I have enough plane tickets --
MR. SANDOVAL: Q. You know, it's not a mystery. If someone says find these notes, can you do that?
MR. CAPITINA: He just indicated that he may or may not be able to find them because they are loose in nature.
MR. TAMBURELLO: And scattered through various --
MR. CAPITINA: So he may be able -- obviously, he would have the capability of looking. Whether or not he can find them is another question.
MR. SANDOVAL: Okay.
Q. You know where to look for these notes?
A. In my possessions throughout the years.
Q. Okay. All right.
I am going to make this request now, then, that whatever notes exist from the summer of '95, that you not destroy them or change them in any fashion. And I am going to ask through your counsel that you look for and find those notes.
MR. TAMBURELLO: What's the relevance, Mr. Sandoval?
MR. SANDOVAL: I don't know until I see them.
MR. CAPITINA: We reserve all rights and objections --
MR. SANDOVAL: Of course. Of course.
MR. CAPITINA: -- and that's -- that's just a statement. Don't answer his --
MR. SANDOVAL: I want to -- look, I am going to take this deposition. We are not going to get anywhere here with these continuing interruptions and -- and coaching the witness here. I mean I don't know what kind of games you are playing.
MR. CAPITINA: I object to --
MR. SANDOVAL: I want to ask my question, and I want to -- and I want to get an answer.
MR. CAPITINA: You may. But however, I have a right and a duty to pose objections where I see fit for my client, and I shall continue to do that.
MR. SANDOVAL: I'm sure you will. I have every belief that you will continue to do so.
MR. CAPITINA: Can we speed this up? If we ask the more pertinent questions . . . .
MR. SANDOVAL: In any event, I am making the request now that you do not destroy them and that you find them, and I just want to go on the record about that. Okay.
Q. So getting back to where you lived during the summer of '95, what is the closest location that you lived to where you were arrested?
A. At the time I was arrested, I was headed for 67 Ramona Street.
Q. Is that where you were living at the time?
A. I do not recall at this moment. I was headed there to meet a friend.
Q. Who is that?
A. His name is Jonathan Steuer.
Q. Do you know offhand where 67 Ramona is in relation to the Safeway, Church and Market?
A. With regards to a compass?
Q. Where is it? North, south? A mile away, two miles away?
A. Oh, it's, I would say, approximately three minutes walking down the hill.
Q. All right. Now, as I understand it, just before you were arrested -- I'm sorry. Let me back up for a minute.
Shortly before -- sometime just before you were arrested, you were at the Safeway at Church and Market buying groceries, is that right?
You have to answer yes or no.
A. Oh, yes.
Q. And you had -- and you had --
A. I was at the Safeway and market to buy groceries. I never commenced buying groceries. I was prohibited by the police.
Q. Okay. And you had been coming from Marin County?
A. That's correct.
Q. From Mr. Rheingold's place?
A. That's correct.
Q. So I take it you were driving then?
A. I was driving.
Q. Your car or someone else's car?
A. I was driving the car of the person I was housesitting for.
Q. Who was that?
A. His name was Ovid Jacob or Jacob. I don't know how you say his name.
Q. J-a-c-o-b?
A. Yes.
Q. Ovid. A-v-i-d or O-v-i-d?
A. O-v-i-d.
Q. O-v-i-d. Okay.
You were living in his house at the time?
A. I guess that would be the case, although, I might have stayed the night at my friend Jonathan Steuer's place if . . . .
Q. And where did Mr. Jacob live?
A. In the Panhandle.
Q. Do you have an address?
A. I do not at this time have an address.
Q. Let me back up for a minute just to understand some of the relationships here.
When you were working out here in the summer of '95, were you working for Mr. Rheingold?
A. Mr. Rheingold paid me to teach him and paid me to write for him.
Q. And can you give me the general nature of the kinds of things you were teaching him and writing?
A. I was teaching him basic web page design, and he was paying me to write articles about my time at school.
Q. Were any of these articles published?
A. These articles were published on his web site, Brainstorms.
Q. Brainstorms.
A. It was called at the time.
Q. Dot com?
A. No, it wasn't dot com. Someone like a hair salon in Texas had that, so it was a longer address. That later became Electric Minds, the company he is currently working with.
Q. Were your articles published in any other medium other than computer? Written form, print form?
A. Those particular articles were not published in print, no.
Q. They were just posted on the web?
A. That's right.
Q. Are they still on the web?
A. That's a good question.
MR. CAPITINA: The question is do you know.
THE WITNESS: I do not at this time know whether they are on the web.
MR. SANDOVAL: Q. What was the address of the web site that they were posted on?
A. It is W-W-W, period, W-E-L-L, period, C-O-M, slash --
Q. Back slash or forward slash? Does it matter?
A. Web slash. I don't know which one it is -- U-S-E-R, slash, H-L-R.
Q. Now, I noticed that you came here today with a -- I don't know what you call it -- a note pad, something with some handwritten notes in it. What is that that you brought here today?
A. That's a note pad with some handwritten notes in it.
Q. All right. And what do you call it? What do you refer to it as?
MR. CAPITINA: I'd object. I don't think it has any relevance whatsoever. But you may answer it if it has a name.