Justin Hall's personal site growing & breaking down since 1994

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as part of my lawsuit against the city of san francisco for false arrest, i was deposed.

i was asked a series of questions by a lawyer from the city attorney's office. i was to answer them truthfully, and i was counselled by my lawyers: if i didn't know an answer, but might remember, i was to say, "i don't remember now" (in so many words), so that i couldn't be so easily challenged adding things to the record later.

i was told to supply no more information than what was needed to answer the question, something, my lawyers joked, i was likely to have a hard time with.

notable moments:
inquiry re: notes | notebooks | torches
most in larger font size and alternative colour.

do skim down to the torches part - the attorney from the city accuses me of "trying to jerk his chain."

                        UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT


             JUSTIN HALL,


             -vs-                     CASE NO. C 96-3038 MMC-ENE

             CITY AND COUNTY OF
             SAN FRANCISCO, et al.,



                              DEPOSITION OF:

                               JUSTIN A. HALL

                         Wednesday, August 20, 1997

             Reported by:          HANNAH KAUFMAN & ASSOCIATES
                                  Certified Shorthand Reporters
             JULIE KAUFMAN             472 Pacheco Street
             C.S.R. NO. 8889     San Francisco, California 94116

                                         (415) 664-4269

                    I N D E X   O F   E X A M I N A T I O N S

                    Examination by:                       Page:

                    Mr. Sandoval                             5


                       I N D E X   O F   E X H I B I T S

                    (No exhibits were offered.)


                       BE IT REMEMBERED that, pursuant to Notice

             of Taking Deposition, and on Wednesday, August 20,

             1997, commencing at the hour of 9:35 a.m. thereof,

             at the OFFICE OF LOUISE H. RENNE, City Attorney of

             San Francisco, 1390 Market Street, Sixth Floor, San

             Francisco, California 94102, Before me, JULIE L.

             KAUFMAN, a Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for

             the State of California, personally appeared

                              JUSTIN A. HALL,

             called as the plaintiff herein; and the said

             plaintiff, being by me first duly sworn, was

             thereupon examined and testified as is hereinafter

             set forth:

                                    - - -

             A P P E A R A N C E S:

                       CAPITINA & ROBINSON, represented by

             MICHAEL F. CAPITINA, Attorney at Law, 372 Castro

             Street, Mountain View, California 94041, appeared

             as counsel on behalf of the plaintiff, JUSTIN A.


                       TAMBURELLO, HANLON & WAGGENER,

             represented by TONY TAMBURELLO, Attorney at Law,

             214 Duboce Street, San Francisco, California 94103,

             appeared as counsel on behalf of the plaintiff,

             JUSTIN A. HALL.

                       OFFICE OF LOUISE H. RENNE, City Attorney


             of San Francisco, represented by JOSEPH SANDOVAL,

             Deputy City Attorney, 1390 Market Street, Sixth

             Floor, San Francisco, California 94102, appeared as

             counsel on behalf of the defendant, CITY AND COUNTY

             OF SAN FRANCISCO.

                                    - - -

JUSTIN A. HALL, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:


MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Good morning, Mr. Hall. Just for formality's sake, please give us your full name for the record.

A. Justin Allyn Hall.

Q. And as I'm sure you are aware, we are taking -- I am taking your deposition this morning. My name is Joe Sandoval. I represent the city and the other defendants in the case. Let me just mention a couple of things, and then we'll get into the substance of the deposition.
What I am going to be doing today is asking you questions, obviously, to which you will be providing answers. Your attorneys, Mr. Capitina and Mr. Tamburello, who are here, may have things to say as well.
All of the things that we talk about today will be taken down by the court reporter, and at the end of the deposition, everything that's said will be typed up in a little booklet that you can read. And it'll be a transcript, and you can actually read the questions and answers.
Everything you say here is under oath just as if you were testifying in court in front of a judge and/or a jury.
Do you understand that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Okay. At the end of the deposition, not today, but when the transcript is prepared, you will have an opportunity to review the transcript, and if there are any errors in the transcript, you have the right to change your answers. But I want to caution you now that if you do change your answers in the transcript, and if they are considered material changes, we can comment on that at trial, and that could adversely affect your credibility or how a jury assesses your credibility.
The reason I am giving you this whole prelude here is if in the course of a deposition, you give me an answer, and then later on, you discover, you know, that's probably wrong, you need to change it, do it today, okay, if you can. Make the correction today if you can rather than wait till later. That's just a caution that I offer for you.
The second thing I want to mention is you have to answer in words, audibly, because the court reporter can't translate a shake of the head or a nod of head. So if you give an answer, please use words.
Do you understand that?

A. Yes, as opposed to grunts.

Q. Right, grunts or nods or whatever. Please answer in words.
If you don't understand my question, if there's anything about my question that's unclear, please tell me, and I will try to ask it again or ask it differently so that you do understand it. Because if you answer, I'm going to assume that you understood it.

A. Yes.

Q. And then please don't guess at an answer. Simply because I ask a question doesn't mean you have an answer for it, and I don't want you to feel like you have to answer a question just because I ask it.
What I want to know is what you know, not what you think might have happened or could have happened or should have happened or in some other world happened. I just want to know what you know, and if you don't know, please tell me that you don't know.

A. Yes.

Q. Finally, if at any time you need to take a break, want to get water, want to go to the bathroom, just say so.

MR. CAPITINA: Or if you wish to speak to me at any point in time, or Mr. Tamburello, feel free at any time to take a break, and we can go outside and discuss anything that you feel is necessary.

THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you.

MR. SANDOVAL: Okay. All right. So with that, let's begin here. Let me just get a little background so I can kind of put you in the larger picture here.
Q. Tell me where you live now, please.

A. I am currently a student, and so I am visiting San Francisco, and I will be residing at Swarthmore College in Swarthmore, Pennsylvania beginning September.

Q. And what -- what -- what year?

A. I'm going into my final year of college.

Q. Your senior year of college at Swarthmore?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Do you have any plans to -- as you sit here now to do any other schooling after you graduate from Swarthmore?

A. I believe none at this time.

Q. Let me ask the question in a slightly different way.
What do you plan to do when you get out of school?

A. Freelance write and consulting with regards to computers.

Q. Consulting in hardware, software, both?

A. Internet development, Internet publishing.

Q. Now, let's see. Do you have any family out here in California or San Francisco?

A. I have a stepbrother, his wife and two lovely children. I have a half sister, her three lovely children and her husband, and another half sister in the Bay Area.

Q. Any of these folks live in San Francisco?

A. One lives in San Francisco. Two live north of the city.

Q. Have you talked to any of them about this case?

A. I have talked to my stepbrother about the case.

Q. What's his name?

A. George Cotsirilos.

Q. Can you spell that, please?

A. C-o-t-s-i-r-i-l-o-s.
My family -- my two sisters, my two half 9 sisters were, as well, incidentally informed, but Mr. George Cotsirilos bailed me out of jail.

Q. He's your stepbrother, right?

A. He is my stepbrother.

Q. He lives here in the city?

A. He lives in Berkeley.

MR. SANDOVAL: And can I ask either one of you gentlemen something? I don't want to get into the details of where he lives and all that. If I need to contact him, will you provide me with his address?


MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Now, when you say your two half sisters know incidentally about it, do you mean you just told them the fact that you were arrested but haven't gone beyond that?

A. Beyond that?

Q. Let me ask it another way rather than put words in your mouth here.
As far as your half sisters are concerned, what did you tell them about the circumstances of this arrest and your involvement with the arrest?

A. I described to them the fact that I saw a protest, was arrested and served time, and then that I had a resulting arrest record and that I was initiating legal proceedings to eradicate that10 record. And I believe last -- two nights ago, I informed them that I was being deposed by attorneys for the city.

Q. Is that the sum and substance of any of the conversations -- sorry. Let me ask it again.
Is what you have just told me the sum and substance of the extent of your conversations with either of your half sisters about the case?

MR. CAPITINA: I'd object on that. I mean he just indicated to you what he spoke to you about. I mean, obviously, there may have been other words or other substance regarding what that happened. What exactly are you asking?

MR. SANDOVAL: That's what I am asking.
Q. I want to basically know everything you told them about the case beyond what you have already said here.

A. That is what I recall telling them at this time.

Q. Did you describe for them, in any more detail than what you have told me here, how it was you came to be arrested?

A. Immediately following my arrest in 1995, I was forced from jail to make phone calls to my family to inform them. And upon my release, I elaborated the events, in 1995 June, to my family.11

Q. When you say your family, who do you mean?

A. I mean my stepbrother, my sisters, my mother in Chicago.

Q. All right. So let me just stick with your stepsisters. What I want --

A. Half sisters.

Q. Half sisters. What I want to do is take you through those conversations. So let me just start with the half sisters --

MR. CAPITINA: Only if you recall.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. -- and ask you again.
Do you recall anything else that you told either of them about how it was you came to be arrested beyond what you have already told me a minute ago?

MR. TAMBURELLO: You know, can I say something?


MR. TAMBURELLO: You know, I am a criminal defense lawyer, so I -- I -- I just don't understand some of this process.
If you are asking him what happened, I think that might be a lot easier. I don't know if he knows exactly what he told each and every person. And if you are going to stick him with the idea of, well, you said you told them this, you said you told them that --

MR. SANDOVAL: Hold on. Hold on.

MR. TAMBURELLO: I think it's vague is what my objection is.

MR. SANDOVAL: I understand what you are saying. I think Mr. Hall seems to be a reasonably intelligent young man, and if he doesn't understand, he can tell me. I want to know -- if he doesn't know, he can tell me. I just want to know what he said to his half sisters about the case. I am entitled to that. There is no privilege that applies.

MR. CAPITINA: He's indicated to you, Mr. Sandoval, what he told. He told them about the arrest. Now, are we going to go into what he told his sister and then what happened? I mean it seems like it's very redundant.

MR. SANDOVAL: Well, it may seem redundant to you, but I'm entitled to ask it. So I'd like to find out --

MR. CAPITINA: Mr. Sandoval, just to indicate, if we go through, and he testifies, we are not going to go over it twice. A lot of these questions are going to be asked and answered, and that objection is going to be applied.

MR. SANDOVAL: Look, anything he says to13 anyone about this case, except for his attorneys, I am entitled to go into.

MR. CAPITINA: I understand.

MR. SANDOVAL: You are not entitled to instruct your witness not to answer.

MR. CAPITINA: I am entitled --

MR. SANDOVAL: Well, fine.

MR. CAPITINA: -- if I see it fit.

MR. SANDOVAL: Fine. If -- if -- all right. Look, I'm not going to argue with you. If you want to instruct him not to answer, you do so. Okay? I'm not going to argue the merits of it. I am just going to take my deposition. You do what you need to do. I'll do what I need to do.

MR. CAPITINA: Very good.

MR. SANDOVAL: All right.
Q. So anyway, again, I want to come back -- what I want to know is can you tell me what else you said to your half sisters about how it was you got arrested other than what you have already told me so far? Is there anything else that you can remember about what you said to them about that?

A. At the time I was arrested, it was the most significant event of that period of my life, and so I told the story of my arrest to many of my familiars, my family and my friends. I cannot at this time recall, in particular, details that were shared with one versus another party.

Q. Okay. Again, let me just ask you: As far as your half sisters are concerned, do you recall anything that you told them about what you were doing or at the time of the arrest?

A. I can tell you now the story that I told -- that I -- that I recall at this time telling to people in 1995.

Q. Okay. Who are these people you are referring to?

A. The people I mentioned earlier, my familiars, my family and my friends.

Q. Okay. Tell me what you told them.

A. I told them that I had been with my friend, Howard Rheingold, in Marin County. We were working, and I was returning to the city after a day of working. I came to Safeway on Market to purchase some groceries. This is the Safeway at Market and 14th or Church --

Q. Church?

A. -- I believe, yes. I pulled into that Safeway. I was prepared to buy groceries, to return to my house nearby. At that time, exiting the car, I observed flashing police lights. I heard chants. And I took my note pad, which I have15 with me, as you have observed. I took my note pad and a pen, and I ventured toward the sound of the protest being intrigued by the events.
I noticed at that time, as well, a number of police assembling a noticeable distance from the people protesting. I followed the protestors at a distance myself. I was following in the street. A policeman, whose badge number I did not record, observed me to remain on the sidewalk in a rather -- in a rather insistent tone, so I remained on the sidewalk as he'd instructed.
We round -- the group of protestors rounded the corner. I rounded the corner behind them. The police rounded the corner behind me. I was at that time standing at some distance from the protestors who were in the street. I had remained on the sidewalk as instructed by the police officer.
At that time, a line of police formed between me and the wall of the buildings on that sidewalk. Officer K. Martin approached me, and at the top of his lungs, in a rather animal tone, gestured (indicating) with his night stick and insisted that I enter the street. I recalled to Officer Martin that I had been previously instructed by another officer to remain on the sidewalk, and Officer Martin again shouted at me and pushed (indicating) at me in the chest with his night stick and forced me out into the street.
I was then a part of a surrounded crowd. There were a perimeter of policemen preventing me from leaving physically. I inquired as to leaving and was told that I should wait, there was nothing happening --

MR. CAPITINA: This is too far. I think that this has gone into a narrative. I think we need some question and answer at this point. The question was what you told his step sister.

MR. SANDOVAL: I'm assuming that's what he's telling me.

MR. CAPITINA: Let's make sure we are in on the same question.

THE WITNESS: Yes, this is -- this is the -- the story. I was then -- I was then within this perimeter of policemen. I inquired to leave. I was not allowed to.
The crowd had moved from chanting about the death penalty, Bosnia, Tibet, Serbian/Croatian justice and was now chanting, "Let us disperse. Let us disperse. Let us disperse."
The police, rather alarmingly, were -- I found to be assuming more and more and more of a17 militaristic stance, widened feet, batons up (indicating). This is now a period of approaching two hours. The crowd is now singing greatest hits by the Police, Led Zeppelin -- the "Police" being a band -- Led Zeppelin and television theme songs from television shows.
People who sit down are cuffed with plastic behind their backs, led away. Then they begin lining us up and filing us through. Someone mumbles something very quickly to me about you are being something for something of something. I am --

MR. CAPITINA: Slow down a little bit. You are getting ahead of the court reporter.

THE WITNESS: I was then cuffed with plastic behind my back until the circulation was cut off to one of my fingers, Polaroided (phonetic) and put on a Muni bus, having to sit on my hands and wait for the rest of the prisoners to be filed onto the Muni bus until it was full and we could drive off and wait outside of 8th and Bryant for another interminable, unexplained amount of time, until I was escorted into a cell, overcrowded cell, overcrowded holding cell.
Then having my personal effects removed from me, being escorted into a second holding cell, overcrowded, and then being put into a large concrete holding tank with a number of drunk people and one gentleman who monopolized the pay phone talking about -- how do you say this -- you better not mess with them tripping bitches. He kept talking about that. There was some guy doing crazy things with the toilet. It was just pretty weird.
And then I was processed, fingerprinted, along with 278 other people --

MR. CAPITINA: Let's -- I am -- that's far enough. This is just a narrative, and I think we are going to insist on some question and answer.

MR. TAMBURELLO: And actually, I think the record will be very clearly reflected that this is what he told his familiars and family members during a period of time.
So it is a narrative, and I think that that, Mr. Sandoval, is what you wanted to get. So that's what we have at this point.

MR. SANDOVAL: Yes. Again, I -- I -- my question was only just tell me what you told them. And if you told them all of this stuff, then tell me, please. I mean -- I am sure we are going to be going over some of this again as we get into the circumstances of the arrest, but my question to you -- and I'm assuming that's what you're responding to. My question to you is just tell me what you told them. And if this is the whole story you told them, then please tell me --


MR. SANDOVAL: -- just give me the story.

MR. CAPITINA: Just -- just -- just tell him in general terms. You don't need to say -- just what you recall. Now, everything you say here, it's being -- I'd like to take a break at this time.
(Recess taken.)

MR. SANDOVAL: Okay. Ready? All right. So anyway, come back to my question again.
Q. You were in the process of telling me --

A. Yes. So I was in a concrete holding cell. I was --

Q. I'm sorry. Let me just finish my question. Then you can answer it. You probably already know what it is.
You were in the process of telling me what you told your half sisters about the case and --

A. No, I was in the process of telling you what I told a general group of my familiars.

Q. Okay. Including your half sisters?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. All right. Fine.
So have you finished your answer, or do you have more to tell me?

A. After I was processed, I was -- during the processing, I was able to witness a number of extreme situations between prisoners and police, one extreme situation between prisoners and police.
I was then taken to a cell. Along that walk to the cell, I was whistled at more than once. I was then in the cell with 18 beds and quarter- inch slabs of baloney and steel picnic tables and a toilet that, if you wanted to drink water, you had to --
(Discussion off the record.)

[this is where i talked about staring in the shitter. those may have been my exact words, but i doubt it. maybe i was that frank.]

THE WITNESS: Quarter-inch slabs of baloney, steel picnic tables; the Price Is Right, which is a very strange thing to watch in jail, and a toilet that, if you wanted to get a drink of water -- have you been to jail? If you want to get a drink of water in jail, you have to lean over the bowl -- the sink is behind the bowl -- so that you are looking at prisoner excrement while you are trying to drink.
Anyway, then I spent some time there, called my family, explained I was in jail and was bailed out for $5,000.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. This was your stepbrother who bailed you out, is that right?

A. Yeah, and Mastercard.

Q. Did you tell your familiars anything else other than what you have told me?

A. What I've imparted to you is the general story of what happened. Depending on the audience, I tailored the story with specific information that they would be more inclined to interest.

Q. Like what? Give me an example.

MR. TAMBURELLO: I object. Because that's vague. In other words, you are going to have to ask each and every person what was said. I mean I think it's --

MR. SANDOVAL: I don't think so.
Let me just say this: I don't want you to tell me what you told your attorneys, but you just told me that depending on the audience, you would --

MR. CAPITINA: Only if you specifically have a specific recollection.

THE WITNESS: I don't have a specific recollection, but I can tell you, for example, some of my young friends, I might have illustrated more the horrors of jail and the processing tedium, whereas for adults who are more acquainted with the legal system, I assume they know these things.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. All right. So is that -- that's everything you recall telling your familiars about this incident involving you; is that a fair statement?

A. That is the general story that I recall imparting in 1995.

Q. I understand that. I just want to know is there any more that you recall imparting other than what you have already told me?

A. At this time, that is the general narrative that I recall imparting.

Q. Okay.

A. There are sections that -- for example, the day after I was arrested, I was pulled over for driving a car with a broken headlight. Police officer said, "Oh, you were just arrested for arson." And I thought, wow, I'm in the computer now. I don't know if it was the day after, but it was within -- you know, within a few days after the arrest.

Q. Okay. All right.
Now, you were arrested June 26th, '95, right? That was the date of the arrest?

A. To the best of my recollection.

Q. Is that the only time you have been arrested?

A. Yes.

Q. Let me go back to the beginning, if you will.
At the time of this arrest, June 26th, '95, were you a resident -- were you living in San Francisco? Were you just visiting?

MR. CAPITINA: I'd object on relevance grounds, but you can answer the question.

THE WITNESS: I was a student. I was here for the summer.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. You were here working for the summer?

A. Yes.

Q. And where were you working at?

A. I was working as a freelance journalist, and I was working with the aforementioned Howard Rheingold.

Q. Where were you working?

A. I was working out of my house as a freelance journalist, and I would travel to his house to work with him.

Q. And who is Mr. Rheingold?

A. Mr. Rheingold is the author of numerous books. He was, prior to that date, the executive editor of a magazine that I worked at. He has since been the founding editor-in-chief and, I believe, C-E-O of a company called Electric Minds, and he is a -- he is one of the noted authorities on virtual communities, how to build community in computer environments.

Q. Now, when you say back in '90 -- summer of -- yes?

MR. CAPITINA: I think he was just trying to indicate '95.

MR. SANDOVAL: Right. Okay. Let me just bracket it here.
Q. The arrest in this case took place June 26th, '95. When did you actually arrive in San Francisco to work for that summer?

A. I do not recall at this time.

Q. When did you leave San Francisco?

A. I do not recall at this time.

Q. Give me a ballpark. I don't need an exact date.

A. I came in June, and I left in August. I was on summer break from college.

Q. And where were you living during that summer?

A. I lived in various places during that summer.

Q. Were you staying with friends?

A. I stayed with friends. I house-sat for friends.

Q. All right. So tell me where you remember living during that summer.

MR. CAPITINA: I would again object as to relevance to this lawsuit of where he was living.
But if you can recall, you can answer the question.

THE WITNESS: I don't recall addresses.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Do you recall neighborhoods?

A. Yeah, the Mission District and the Panhandle. Panhandle of Golden Gate Park, I guess.

Q. Right. Whatever places you lived during that summer, what was the --

A. Let me say -- I said I do not recall addresses. I do not recall addresses at this time. They are things that I could look up.

Q. Like what?

A. I could just look up in my notes, or I could call my friends and say where, where was -- what was the address of your apartment?

Q. Okay. Did you keep notes, by the way, during the summer of '95 --

A. Sporadically.

Q. I am sorry. Let me finish my question.
Did you keep notes of the things you did and observed during that summer?

A. Sporadically.

Q. And when you say sporadic, what does that mean?

A. It means when I was inclined to write them.

Q. And do you still have those notes?

A. Somewhere in my archives of old piles of paper.

Q. Any of those notes committed to computer disk?

A. During that time that I was -- I had more than one way of keeping notes so that I would either be keeping notes on the computer or keeping notes on paper. And so from that period, there might be notes in either format in any one of four computers and three collections of papers.

Q. If I were to ask you then to look for your notes, whether in handwritten form or typed form or on computer, you could do that?

A. I could look for them, yes. As for coming up with a coherent presentation of notes from the summer of 1995, that is to be doubted.

Q. What does that mean?

A. It means that my note taking at that time was not very organized, methodical or likely encounterable at this point because it's loose and it's scattered.

Q. Scattered geographically?

MR. CAPITINA: Again, I am going to object to this line of questions. If you are asking him whether or not -- I believe he answered the question. This has nothing to do with this case as far as how he keeps notes. So I'd like to get back to the basis of whether or not -- I believe your line of questioning was whether or not he has notes regarding -- I believe you are asking about this incident, I take it.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Did you date your notes at the time you wrote them?

A. Sometimes. I dated them -- I believe I dated them the night of the arrest.

Q. In any event, I am not asking you now what these notes look like or whatever, but let me ask you this question: In whatever form these notes might be, handwritten, computer, scattered, sporadic, however you want to characterize them, have you destroyed any of these notes?

A. No, I have not destroyed any of these notes.

Q. Okay. All right.
And you have the capability, if asked, to look for these notes?

MR. CAPITINA: Objection. What do you mean by capability? That's vague and ambiguous.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Do you understand my question?

MR. CAPITINA: Wait. I want -- we would like a clarification whether or not --

MR. SANDOVAL: He's the one who is answering. If he understands, he can answer it.

THE WITNESS: Do I have the capacity to look for these notes?


THE WITNESS: Well, let me put it this way: The notes could be in Swarthmore, Pennsylvania, Chicago, Illinois, or San Francisco, California. They could be in a number of houses, boxes. And so I can look for them if I have enough plane tickets --

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. You know, it's not a mystery. If someone says find these notes, can you do that?

MR. CAPITINA: He just indicated that he may or may not be able to find them because they are loose in nature.

MR. TAMBURELLO: And scattered through various --

MR. CAPITINA: So he may be able -- obviously, he would have the capability of looking. Whether or not he can find them is another question.

Q. You know where to look for these notes?

A. In my possessions throughout the years.

Q. Okay. All right.
I am going to make this request now, then, that whatever notes exist from the summer of '95, that you not destroy them or change them in any fashion. And I am going to ask through your counsel that you look for and find those notes.

MR. TAMBURELLO: What's the relevance, Mr. Sandoval?

MR. SANDOVAL: I don't know until I see them.

MR. CAPITINA: We reserve all rights and objections --

MR. SANDOVAL: Of course. Of course.

MR. CAPITINA: -- and that's -- that's just a statement. Don't answer his --

MR. SANDOVAL: I want to -- look, I am going to take this deposition. We are not going to get anywhere here with these continuing interruptions and -- and coaching the witness here. I mean I don't know what kind of games you are playing.

MR. CAPITINA: I object to --

MR. SANDOVAL: I want to ask my question, and I want to -- and I want to get an answer.

MR. CAPITINA: You may. But however, I have a right and a duty to pose objections where I see fit for my client, and I shall continue to do that.

MR. SANDOVAL: I'm sure you will. I have every belief that you will continue to do so.

MR. CAPITINA: Can we speed this up? If we ask the more pertinent questions . . . .

MR. SANDOVAL: In any event, I am making the request now that you do not destroy them and that you find them, and I just want to go on the record about that. Okay.
Q. So getting back to where you lived during the summer of '95, what is the closest location that you lived to where you were arrested?

A. At the time I was arrested, I was headed for 67 Ramona Street.

Q. Is that where you were living at the time?

A. I do not recall at this moment. I was headed there to meet a friend.

Q. Who is that?

A. His name is Jonathan Steuer.

Q. Do you know offhand where 67 Ramona is in relation to the Safeway, Church and Market?

A. With regards to a compass?

Q. Where is it? North, south? A mile away, two miles away?

A. Oh, it's, I would say, approximately three minutes walking down the hill.

Q. All right. Now, as I understand it, just before you were arrested -- I'm sorry. Let me back up for a minute.
Shortly before -- sometime just before you were arrested, you were at the Safeway at Church and Market buying groceries, is that right?
You have to answer yes or no.

A. Oh, yes.

Q. And you had -- and you had --

A. I was at the Safeway and market to buy groceries. I never commenced buying groceries. I was prohibited by the police.

Q. Okay. And you had been coming from Marin County?

A. That's correct.

Q. From Mr. Rheingold's place?

A. That's correct.

Q. So I take it you were driving then?

A. I was driving.

Q. Your car or someone else's car?

A. I was driving the car of the person I was housesitting for.

Q. Who was that?

A. His name was Ovid Jacob or Jacob. I don't know how you say his name.

Q. J-a-c-o-b?

A. Yes.

Q. Ovid. A-v-i-d or O-v-i-d?

A. O-v-i-d.

Q. O-v-i-d. Okay.
You were living in his house at the time?

A. I guess that would be the case, although, I might have stayed the night at my friend Jonathan Steuer's place if . . . .

Q. And where did Mr. Jacob live?

A. In the Panhandle.

Q. Do you have an address?

A. I do not at this time have an address.

Q. Let me back up for a minute just to understand some of the relationships here.
When you were working out here in the summer of '95, were you working for Mr. Rheingold?

A. Mr. Rheingold paid me to teach him and paid me to write for him.

Q. And can you give me the general nature of the kinds of things you were teaching him and writing?

A. I was teaching him basic web page design, and he was paying me to write articles about my time at school.

Q. Were any of these articles published?

A. These articles were published on his web site, Brainstorms.

Q. Brainstorms.

A. It was called at the time.

Q. Dot com?

A. No, it wasn't dot com. Someone like a hair salon in Texas had that, so it was a longer address. That later became Electric Minds, the company he is currently working with.

Q. Were your articles published in any other medium other than computer? Written form, print form?

A. Those particular articles were not published in print, no.

Q. They were just posted on the web?

A. That's right.

Q. Are they still on the web?

A. That's a good question.

MR. CAPITINA: The question is do you know.

THE WITNESS: I do not at this time know whether they are on the web.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. What was the address of the web site that they were posted on?

A. It is W-W-W, period, W-E-L-L, period, C-O-M, slash --

Q. Back slash or forward slash? Does it matter?

A. Web slash. I don't know which one it is -- U-S-E-R, slash, H-L-R.

Q. Now, I noticed that you came here today with a -- I don't know what you call it -- a note pad, something with some handwritten notes in it. What is that that you brought here today?

A. That's a note pad with some handwritten notes in it.

Q. All right. And what do you call it? What do you refer to it as?

MR. CAPITINA: I'd object. I don't think it has any relevance whatsoever. But you may answer it if it has a name.

THE WITNESS: No, no proper nomenclature, no, for example, Bill or Gwendolyn, but it's my notebook.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. And does the notebook that you brought here today have any notes that were made during the summer of 1995?

A. No.

Q. What's the earliest note in your notebook?

MR. CAPITINA: If you recall.

MR. SANDOVAL: I can take a look at it if you want.

MR. CAPITINA: No. Wait, wait, wait. This is a oral deposition, and I don't want you to have to look at anything. I mean no requirement --

THE WITNESS: It's early June 1997.

Q. Do any of the notes in the notebook that you have here today have anything to do with your arrest in June of 1995?

A. There are notes in that notebook pertaining to the pending legal action between me and the city.

Q. This action?

A. Yes.
No notes pertaining directly to the arrest and the incidents that precipitated this legal action.

Q. And these notes that pertain to the pending legal action with the city, do these notes or do those notes include notes of conversations36 with your attorneys about the case?

MR. CAPITINA: If you don't understand the question, say you don't understand.

THE WITNESS: They are notes informed by conversations that I had with my attorneys.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. They are notes you made following conversations with your attorneys or about conversations with your attorneys?

A. They are notes that I made following conversations with my attorneys.

Q. Did you keep any notes at any time about the things that you saw at the time of your arrest on June 26th, 1995?

A. Could you rephrase the question?

Q. Yes. What I am trying to find out is at any time, did you make any notes that have to do with the kinds of things that you saw, that you actually observed with your two eyes?

A. Yes.

Q. During the time of the arrest on June 26th, 1995?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And did you make -- when did you make those notes?

A. I made notes during the period of my incidence until my notebook was impounded. I then procured a pen and a pencil and made further notes inside the prison. And in the days immediately following my arrest, I compiled notes from memory.

Q. So if I understand you correctly, at the time that -- around the time that -- or at the time you were arrested, you had some kind of notebook or something that you were making notes in at the time until they took it away, until the police took it away from you, is that right?
You have to answer yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. Where is that notebook?

A. That notebook is one of many notebooks from many years of note taking, and I am personally saddened to notice that somehow in my personal archives, notebooks are missing. For example, the very first notebook I ever kept, I was 14, and my heart had been slain by a rather beautiful young woman. That notebook is no longer to be found.

Q. I am not interested in that notebook. All I'm talking about -- let me focus the question.
All I'm talking about is the notebook that you had in your possession at the time of your arrest that was later taken from you by the police. Where is that notebook?

A. I am not at this time certain of its whereabouts.

Q. When was the last time you looked at it?

A. I have not looked in that notebook for at least a year.

Q. You also said after the notebook was taken from you, you were able to get some paper, and you made some notes while you were in jail, correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Do you still have those notes?

A. I am not at this time certain. I am not certain of that at this time.

Q. When is the last time you looked at those notes?

A. I estimate it was in 1995.

Q. Then you said you also made some notes after -- once you got out of jail, you also made some notes in the days following getting out of jail, is that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. And where are those notes?

A. On the Internet.

Q. On the Internet.
Where on the Internet?

A. There is a -- I have a personal web page where I detailed the story of my arrest.

Q. What's the address?

A. H-T-T-P, colon, slash, slash, W-W-W, period, L-I-N-K-S, period, N-E-T, slash, V-I-T-A, slash, L-A-W.

Q. Is that web site still in existence?

A. I sure hope so.

Q. Okay. And -- all right.
These notes that you made a couple of days after your arrest --

A. Within a few days of . . . .

Q. Yeah. Right, a few days after your arrest. Are those notes in print anywhere, either in your handwriting or in any print medium?

MR. CAPITINA: Is that a no?

THE WITNESS: That is a no, yes. Sorry.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. So the only form in which these notes exist is --

A. Electronic.

Q. -- on the web? All right.
Do you have like a disk, a diskette copy of these notes, or -- or a note -- a copy of those notes on your hard drive on one of your computers somewhere?

A. I do not at this time recall the contents of my computer.

Q. Have you posted anything on the net having to do with this lawsuit or your arrest other than these notes on this particular web page you just told me about?

A. I'm not sure whether you are asking a question with reference to venue or content.

Q. Both.

A. Okay.

MR. CAPITINA: Objection. Compound.
Why don't you take them one at a time, Counsel?

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. What I want to know is other than these notes that are posted at this Links dot net site, have you posted anywhere else on the net anything having to do with this lawsuit or your arrest?

A. I do not at this time recall. It is my belief that I did not.

Q. Let me just show you -- I am not going to mark this as an exhibit. It's the Initial Disclosure. Couple questions about that.
Mr. Hall, I am going to show you what's -- I am not going to mark it as an exhibit. I'll just represent to you this is what's called Plaintiff's Initial Disclosure. This is a document filed by your attorneys in this case. I just have a couple of questions about some things here.
In the second page of this thing is a heading. Says Unprivileged Documents In Plaintiff's Control. You are the plaintiff, okay. And one of the things that's mentioned are -- says four audiotapes. Do you see that?

A. I see it, yes.

Q. Do you know what that refers to?

A. No.

Q. Do you have any audiotapes in your possession?

A. I have many audiotapes in my possession.

Q. Do you have any audiotapes --

MR. TAMBURELLO: Can I clarify?


MR. TAMBURELLO: These are things that we received during the course of our presentation of his lawsuit, and they are audiotapes and videotapes that we received from -- I am going by memory. I'm not a hundred percent sure -- by way of -- like there was a audiotaped meeting and videotaped meeting of the Board of Supervisors --

MR. SANDOVAL: Let me ask you this: What you're telling me is that the audiotapes and videotapes that you got were from sources other than Mr. Hall?


MR. SANDOVAL: Okay. Fine. That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. Okay. All right.
Q. I want to take you back to June 26th, '95. I want to cover some of this in detail about, you know, what happened. And let me pick it up at the point that you arrived at the Safeway on Church and Market. The first question I had is was anyone else in the car with you?

A. No.

Q. And did you park in the Safeway parking lot?

A. I did.

Q. And what kind of car were you driving by the way?

A. A Ford Pinto.

Q. What year was it?

A. I believe it's from the late '70's.

Q. Now, tell me what you did after you parked in the parking lot and turned off the car.

MR. CAPITINA: Objection. Calls for a narrative.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. What's the first thing you did?

A. I turned off the ignition, removed the key. These are events I do not recall in exactitude. I stepped from the car.

Q. Tell me what you remember.

A. I remember hearing chants, seeing flashing lights.

Q. When you stepped out of the car, you heard chants and saw flashing lights?

A. Yes, that's correct, police lights.

Q. Where did you see the police lights?

A. I saw police lights at around Photoworks, which is a store. I'm not clear on -- it's right at where -- I guess where Church hits Market. That's where I saw about the -- that's the -- I couldn't see the area. I could only see the lights reflected on buildings, and so I couldn't see the source of the lights.

Q. You didn't see the actual vehicles where the lights were coming from?

A. Not at that point.

Q. You could see the flashing.

A. Can I ask for a break to use the restroom?

MR. SANDOVAL: Yes. Sure.
(Recess taken.)

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. So you saw the flashing -- you saw at least the reflection of the lights. Were those reflections coming up from Church Street?
You don't know?

THE WITNESS: Don't know.

MR. CAPITINA: You got to give a verbal answer.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. So what did you do after you saw those lights and heard the chants?

A. I was intrigued, so I strode towards the -- across the parking lot. It was at that corner of the parking lot, if you know how the Safeway is situated.

Q. Corner of 14th and Church there?

A. 14th, Church, Market.

Q. It all comes together?

A. I believe it does, yes. Maybe it's 15th. I'm not --

Q. It's 14th.

A. Is it 14th? Church and Market? Okay. I strode towards there.

Q. And did you cross Market Street?

A. I don't -- in my geo -- my geographical positioning at the time is difficult to recall exactly. I believe I crossed Market, but I can't recall exactly which streets things/people were on and where I was in relation to everything.

Q. In any event, the Safeway parking lot is on one side of Market, and then, obviously, there is the other side of Market, right?

A. That's right. I believe that the45 protestors were headed at that point down not -- if Church is here and Market is here, there is -- then 14th bisects them. So I believe the protestors were heading down 14th by that time, and I was at their rear, seeing them from the rear crossing Market (indicating).

Q. Were they headed down 14th towards Dolores Street?

A. I believe that they were. I wasn't at the front of the group. I didn't know what was going on.

Q. I realize you are not at the front of the group. I am trying to get the general direction of the group. Looked like they were headed towards Dolores?

A. One thing about this was that there wasn't -- there wasn't a general direction apparent. People were walking, but people were kind of walking in a lot of different directions.

Q. Did you see any like fires or lighted torches?

A. I saw a torch.

Q. Just one?

A. That I recall now.

Q. Did you see any fires in the street, trash fires?

A. I saw no fires.

Q. Did you hear any fireworks going off, cherry bombs?

A. I heard no explosions.

Q. All right. So in any event, when you got -- I take it then when you got to the corner area of this parking lot, you were at the rear of the crowd that was --

A. I've exited the parking lot. I'm on the street area, and I am at the -- what did you ask?

Q. You were at the rear of the crowd?

A. I believe I was at the rear of the crowd. I said there wasn't a general direction, but I guess there was a body sort of slithering somewhere.

Q. And again, when you first met up with the crowd, how far were you physically from what you call the rear of the crowd?

A. Today, I estimate I was at least 20 to 30 feet.

Q. And at that time, were you still on the same side of Market as the Safeway parking lot?

A. No. At that point, I believe I had crossed and was beginning to -- to -- shortly -- shortly -- okay.
I crossed Market. Crowd is heading down 14th. I begin to go down 14th to see what's happening, and very shortly thereafter, I am verbally instructed by an officer to remain on the sidewalk, which keeps me at more of a distance.

Q. I'll come to that.

A. Yes, yes, but I am saying it all happened very rapid.

Q. I understand. Okay.
So as you are in this -- in the street at the rear of the crowd, when did you first notice any police near -- when did you actually physically --

A. I noticed -- I noticed police in the area immediately. There were cars that were casting the lights that initially attracted me as well as the sounds of people chanting.

Q. When you reached the rear of this crowd, and before this officer told you to get on the sidewalk, how close were you to the nearest police officer that you could tell?

A. My attention was not at that time directed at the police. My attention was directed at figuring out what these people were protesting about. I don't recall at this time.

Q. Was your first -- is your first memory of actually seeing a police officer -- is your first48 memory the memory of the officer telling you to get on the sidewalk?

A. I saw police officers on foot.

Q. Before the officer told you to get on the sidewalk?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. How far were these officers on foot from you when you saw them?

A. At this time, I recall at least 40 to 50 feet.

Q. And --

A. Until -- because there's such a large area at that corner of Market and Church and 14th, that things condensed. As I said, things happened in rapid succession as soon as I hit 14th Street. I was near enough to an officer that he instructed me to be on the street.
(Discussion off the record.)

MR. SANDOVAL: Oh, let me just mention one thing I forgot to say at the outset. A lot of my questions, you will know probably from the minute I open my mouth what the question is going to be, and the tendency sometimes is to start answering before I finish. Please try to avoid that temptation. I know it's tedious, but if we are talking over each other, it makes it hard for the court reporter.

THE WITNESS: That's absolutely correct.

MR. SANDOVAL: So just take your time. Having now violated that admonition, let me go on to my next question.

Q. The thing I am just trying to get a sense of here -- I don't need to know the exact location. I just want to get a sense of where these various officers on foot were in relation to you when you first noticed them.
In other words, were they behind you? Were they to your right, to your left, in front of you?

A. Officers' cars to the right, protestors to the left. Down 14th at the intersection in the Church/Market area are the police. Down 14th are the protestors, and I am venturing leftward to understand the nature of the disturbance.

Q. The police officers on foot, were they behind the crowd also, at least the ones you saw?

A. Well, behind. If I am behind the crowd, they are behind the crowd. It's a broad behind.

Q. Right. I understand the crowd is -- the crowd is in a wide area. I'm just trying --

A. No, I'm not saying the crowd's in a wide area. I'm saying the definition of behind is then broad if you are asking me if -- if we are saying50 the officers and I are both behind the crowd, we are using a broad definition of behind that encompasses approximately a hundred and eighty degrees. It's hard to demonstrate for a tape recorder and a court reporter, but I believe the officers and I were at at least 90 degree angles to the protestors if that makes any sense to you.

Q. Were these officers on foot, the ones that you saw?

A. Yes.

Q. Were they in front of you as you saw them?

A. No, no, no, they were to my right.

Q. To your right. Okay.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. All right. Then they seemed to be following the crowd as well?

A. Yeah.

Q. Were they dressed in -- how were they dressed, these officers on foot?

A. They were wearing dark colors, navy. They -- they were like more dark in terms of their apparel.

Q. They have jumpsuits on?

A. I don't recall seeing a lot of the typical patches and so forth that usually festoon an officer.

Q. No. What my question was could you tell if they were in jumpsuits?

A. Right.

Q. Were they in jumpsuits?

A. I understand your question. My answer is that I don't recall seeing a lot of the festoonage of typical uniforms, so they could have been in something more plain and dark, which could be the jumpsuits you allude to or not. I was not, at the time, focused there.

Q. Did they have helmets on?

A. I don't recall at this time whether they had helmets on.

Q. Were they carrying batons?

A. I don't recall at this time whether I noticed that, that they were carrying batons.

Q. All right. Where were you when some officer told you to get on the sidewalk?

A. I was just beginning to go off the sidewalk to go into the street to follow the crowd as it was, I believe, heading down into Landers Street.

Q. At the time that the officer told you to get on the sidewalk, were you physically standing in 14th Street or Market or Landers? Remember which street?

A. If I revisited the location, I could tell you for certain. Having not done so, I would venture to estimate --

MR. CAPITINA: Are you basing this on what you recall, or are you just guessing?

THE WITNESS: No, I am estimating based on my recollection of the area and the happenings.


THE WITNESS: 14th Street, I believe, I was -- I was in 14th Street.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. And you were facing towards -- at the time that the officer told you to get on the sidewalk, you were facing towards Dolores Street?

A. That I do not recall.

Q. Let me represent to you, if this helps --

A. Okay.

Q. -- one end of 14th Street is Market, right. It's where the Church and Market and 14th all come together by the Safeway parking lot.

A. Yes.

Q. Then if you head generally in the easterly direction towards downtown going down 14th Street --

A. Okay.

Q. -- you hit Dolores Street.53

A. Yes. But I do not recall at this time which direction I was facing when I was requested to . . . .

Q. Okay. All right. Okay.
So do you know offhand -- not offhand.
Do you know the identity of the officer who told you to get on the sidewalk?

A. I -- I do not recall the identity of the initial officer.

Q. Can you tell me how he was dressed?

A. He was dressed as a beat cop.

Q. Meaning what?

A. He had festoonage. He had a little badge. And I don't recall right now exactly, but I looked at him, and I think -- at this time, I recall that he --

Q. He looked like the normal cop you see on the street?

A. Yeah, a beat cop, as I said.

Q. I understand what you are saying.
Did he have a helmet on?

A. No, he did not.

Q. Or was he carrying a baton?

A. He did not gesture at me with a baton.

Q. Can you tell me -- I assume he was standing?54

A. In the street.

Q. In the street.
In 14th Street?

A. (Witness nods head.)
Get on the -- let's see -- "get on the sidewalk."

Q. That's what he said to you?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you get on the sidewalk?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When you got on the sidewalk, how far were you from him?

A. Oh, at this time, I estimate six to eight feet.

Q. When you got on the sidewalk, did you stay put there in that location?

A. I did not remain in one location. I remained on the sidewalk as he had instructed.

Q. So after you got on the sidewalk, then you --

A. Continued to follow the protest at a distance.

Q. I got you. Okay.
So you continued to follow the protest, but walking on the sidewalk?

A. That's correct. The protestors -- the55 protestors were in the street.

Q. Okay. In 14th Street?

A. And I was on the sidewalk.

Q. At the point that you got on the sidewalk, how far was this crowd from you?

A. As I rounded the corner to Landers, there was a large body of protestors that I had not before seen. And so when I was on the sidewalk, I was some 20 feet, 30 feet, an estimate at this time of my distance, 20 or 30 feet from the stragglers at the end of the protest.

Q. Okay. That's good. I appreciate that. All right.
So I take it then at the point that you got on the sidewalk, you physically yourself had not yet reached Landers Street, correct?

A. No. At this time, I do not recall, but the geography --

Q. That's a double negative. Let me ask it again.

A. Whose double negative?

Q. Mine. Let me ask it again.
At the point that you stepped onto the sidewalk at the direction of the police officer, at that point, had you reached Landers Street?

A. It is my recollection today that I had not56 yet reached Landers Street.

Q. But as you continued to walk on the sidewalk, you were headed in the direction of Landers Street?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay.

A. I was walking in the direction of the body of people.

Q. Right. I understand.
Now, at any -- and then I think you said a minute ago that when you got to Landers, you turned the corner onto Landers, and you saw another body of protestors; is that a fair statement?

A. Another body of protestors? I saw the head of the body of protestors, the large assemblage.

Q. The thing I am trying to figure out is as you walk down the sidewalk and as you approach Landers, did you make a turn onto Landers?

A. Yes, I did, and I did not have to cross the street to make that turn. I remained on the sidewalk.

Q. I am generally familiar with the area, so -- so I -- so I hope we are on the same wavelength here. I am just trying to get a sense of --57

A. We sort of are on the same wavelength, but as it is that I attend college in Pennsylvania, this is not my haunt.

Q. Okay. I understand. And if -- if you need to clarify that or my question's not clear, tell me.

A. Okay.

Q. All right.

A. That's why I preface all of my geographical statements with "in my estimation today."

Q. I understand. And I understand you can't be exact in terms of distance, so give me your best estimate. All right. Okay.
Now, as you were approaching Landers Street, did you see any police officers in front of you?

A. In front of me? I do not at this time recall seeing police officers in front of me.

Q. As you were walking down the sidewalk towards Landers Street, were there any police officers behind you?

A. Yes, there were police officers behind me at some distance, the police officers that I had seen before.

Q. Were still back there?58

A. Were moving back there.

Q. These are the officers on foot that you had talked about earlier?

A. Yes.

Q. And were these officers on foot moving down 14th in same direction you were?

A. Yes, they were roughly following the same path that I had followed.

Q. And had you noticed these officers moving in that direction before you reached Landers Street?

A. I had noticed them initially when I reached the protest.

Q. Right. Okay. But my question is a little different.
Now, you are on the sidewalk heading towards Landers. As you were doing that, were you aware of police officers behind you headed in the same direction that you were headed?

A. At the time that I was walking, there were people yelling, "Free Moomi Abu Jamal" (phonetic), "End the racist death penalty." There were people yelling about Serbia. There were people yelling about Tibet. There were people with video cameras. There were people running. There were people yelling. There were people saying, "What's going on here?"

MR. CAPITINA: Slow down, Justin.

THE WITNESS: There -- there was people saying, "Is this a party?" There was a lot of things happening at the time.

MR. SANDOVAL: Right. I understand. I understand, and I appreciate that.
Q. But my question still is as you were walking on the sidewalk heading towards Landers, did you become aware at any time before you reached Landers of police officers behind you moving in your direction?

A. I was generally aware of a lot of people moving in my area. I think at the time that I was moving behind the protestors, I wasn't paying specific attention to people behind me, be they policemen or other curiosity seekers or other protestors.

Q. Okay. Now, when you reached Landers Street, where was this group of people that you were walking behind? Where had they gone?

A. They had gone to the middle of the block in Landers Street, and they were collecting.

Q. Did they turn the corner onto Landers Street?


MR. SANDOVAL: This group that you were following.

THE WITNESS: They were in the middle of Landers Street. They had already --

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. They had already made the turn?

A. -- 14th, Landers. I believe that's how it goes, 14th to Landers.

Q. Right.

A. If my geography doesn't fail me, they were there in the middle of Landers Street approximately.

Q. When you got to the corner of 14th and Landers, this group was to your right, I take it?

A. Yes.

Q. When you got to the corner of 14th and Landers, are you still on the sidewalk at this point?

A. I remained on the sidewalk till the officer forced me off (indicating).

Q. At the point that you got to 14th and -- corner of 14th and Landers, how far was this group that had collected on Landers Street? How far were they from you?

A. I do not at this time recall. I believe there were still a large enough number of61 stragglers that it was not clear to me that they were collecting yet, but I was still at the distance I previously stated.

Q. Can you describe for me the pace of your walk? From the point you got on the sidewalk at the police officer's direction to the point you got to the corner of Landers, what pace were you -- what pace were you walking? How would you characterize it?

A. It was a difficult pace because I was trying to write and walk at the same time. It wasn't a very urgent walk, but it wasn't a stroll. I don't have a definite term for it at this time.

Q. Just can you -- all right.
I'm not asking you the speed, obviously, a speed estimate. Can you characterize for me in any way the pace that you were --

A. Well, I'd have to characterize it negatively. It wasn't a stroll, and it wasn't a clip. It was more than just walking, but it was slow enough that I could still scribble.

Q. Now, when you got to the corner of Landers and 14th, where was the closest police officer to you?

A. I do not at this time recall.

Q. When you got to the corner of Landers and62 14th, did you notice any police officers in the area?

A. I do not at this time recall.

Q. When you got to the corner of Landers and 14th Street, what did you do next?

A. This is, for you, a big event, my arrival at the corner of Landers and 14th, but for me, it was just part of --

Q. I just want to know what you did.

A. But I -- this was just part -- I was continuing to follow the crowd as I had as they'd rounded the corner down 14th. Now, I was -- they were rounding the corner down Landers, and I was continuing to follow them on the sidewalk, taking notes.

Q. In other words, you didn't stop at the corner of 14th and Landers, you just rounded the corner --

A. It was nothing unusual at the corner of Landers and 14th.

Q. I understand that. You don't need to read into my question any --

A. Okay.

Q. -- any particular meaning. I am just trying to establish the fact that when you got to the corner of Landers and 14th, you didn't stop to63 look around; you simply rounded the corner and kept following the crowd, correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. How far down Landers did you walk before meeting up with the police officer?

A. I did not make it as far as the crowd made it. I mean -- in other words, I stopped of my own volition. I was paused, observing from a distance and writing, when I was approached by the police. And so, I would say I was at that time at least 30 feet from the crowd, in my estimation today, when I was paused on the sidewalk. If the street runs as so (indicating), the crowd was here, and I was paused at a distance that was, shall we say, lateral. I don't know how to say this. I was down the street from them and to the side, both.

Q. You were still on the sidewalk?

A. I was still on the sidewalk. The body -- there were -- to my recollection, there were no protestors on the sidewalk. There were only protestors in the street, and they were a good number of feet from me.

Q. As you turned the corner onto Landers and walked down Landers, can you give me -- can you give me an estimate of how far you got down Landers before pausing?64

A. I could, perhaps if I returned to the street, recall where I stood. I think I leaned against a building and wrote or stood near a particular, but I do not at this time recall the edifice, and I reserve the right to have forgotten it when I see it.

Q. I understand you can't recall exactly. I'm not asking for exactly. I just want to get a sense of how far from the corner you were.

A. I -- it was --

MR. TAMBURELLO: Excuse me. I really think this has been asked and answered, Mr. Sandoval. He doesn't recall.

MR. SANDOVAL: Well, he can tell me that.

MR. TAMBURELLO: He's already done that.

MR. SANDOVAL: I am trying to position him on Landers, so let me ask it again.

THE WITNESS: I couldn't spit to the corner from where I was.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Can you give me any estimate in feet as you recall it now?

MR. CAPITINA: Only if you -- if you have a -- if you have an estimate, something that you base it upon that you saw, something that you can recollect. But if you are just going to guess, don't guess.65

THE WITNESS: I said earlier that the crowd was approximately halfway down Landers, and I was approximately 30 feet from the crowd, if that gives you any placement. I was 30 feet diagonally from the crowd, so I was probably, in very rough terms, near halfway down the block.

MR. SANDOVAL: Okay. All right.
Q. Why did you pause?

A. Because the crowd had paused, and I was remaining at a distance to observe.

Q. And what was the crowd doing?

A. Chanting.

Q. Just chanting?

A. (Witness nods head.)

Q. When you paused to observe what was going on, did you see any police officers around?

A. I do not recall seeing police officers around at that time.

Q. Either behind you or in front of you or to the side of you?

A. Not -- at this time, I do not recall seeing police officers at that time.

Q. Okay. This is like -- I'm not sure what the metaphor is here. Never mind. I'll skip it. I've been watching too many cop shows.

A. We did sing the theme from Cops. Bad66 boys, bad boys.

Q. I'm sure you did.
How long did you pause at this location on Landers? Actually, how long were you there pausing before you moved again?

A. I paused at that location until I was forcibly moved by the police.

Q. All right. When you say forcibly moved, this is the thing you described earlier where you were pushed into the street; is that what you are talking about?

A. Yes.

Q. How long were you paused at that location on Landers before the police pushed you into the street?

A. I do not at this time recall.

Q. Can you give me any estimate that's not a guess?

A. I can tell you for certain that it was more than 10 seconds.

Q. That's the best you can do?

A. At this time, yeah.

Q. Okay. All right.

A. It was time. In other words, I didn't stop and then rush on. I was there observing the crowd for moments, noticeable moments.67

Q. Okay. And was it just one police officer who pushed you into the street?

A. At the time I was standing, writing, observing, a number of policemen in a line, sort of militaristically hup-twoing or so, assembled along the sidewalk where I was.

Q. On Landers?

A. Yes, on Landers. And one of those cops took it upon himself to force me into the street. But there were other cops near him at the time.

Q. Now, when you say a line of police officers, was there just a line, one officer behind the other, or was it a line that crossed, or were they standing next to each other across the street?

A. They were parallel to the sidewalk.

Q. Parallel to the sidewalk? So they were one behind the other in a line?

A. Yeah (indicating). I believe so, or they could have -- yeah.

Q. And they were on your side of the sidewalk?

A. Yes, those particular police officers were on my side of the sidewalk.

Q. Did you first notice that there were police officers there when this officer pushed you into the street? Is that the first time you68 noticed there were police officers there?

MR. CAPITINA: I am going to object.

MR. SANDOVAL: Let me ask it again.

MR. CAPITINA: Little vague. He indicated he saw an officer.

MR. SANDOVAL: I understand.
Q. Was the first time that you realized there was this line of police officers on the sidewalk near you when this officer pushed you into the street?

A. Well, the line of police officers approached. There was an inevitable question of I was where they wanted to be, and so one of them took steps to remove me from where they wanted to be.

Q. How much time passed between the time that you first noticed this line of police officers to the time they pushed you into the street?

A. It is my recollection now that their seizing of the sidewalk was very rapid.

Q. My question is how much time passed between the time that you noticed the arrival of these police officers to the time you were pushed into the street?

A. I do not at this time recall, but as I said, it was very rapid.69

Q. Took place quickly?

A. Yes, it took place quickly.

Q. All right. Now, as you described it, this officer came up to you and had a baton in his hands horizontally?

A. Both of his hands, horizontally.

Q. He pushed you into the street?

A. No. First, he stepped forward one foot, stuck the baton out and said, "Get out on the street." He shouted, "Get out on the street."
And I said, "Excuse me. The last officer told me to remain on the sidewalk. I think I am doing as instructed." Then he stepped forward more (indicating) and stuck the baton at me and said, "Get out on the street." And I had no choice but to . . . .

Q. At any point, did he touch you with the baton?

A. I do not at this time recall whether there was actually contact, but I had no choice but to move or I would be contacted. In other words, where his hands and the baton were was where my chest was a few seconds before.

Q. Okay. My question, though, is still at any point, did he physically touch you with the baton?70

A. It's my feeling that -- I do not recall -- nothing -- he did not hit me in a way that left me -- I felt physically threatened by him.

Q. I understand.

A. And physically forced.

Q. My question, again, remains the same.
Did he at any point physically touch you with the baton?

A. I don't think that he did.

Q. You followed his order and got into the street, I take it?

A. I had no choice.

Q. Right.

A. I tried to present my case.

Q. Did he respond to your comment at all?

A. Yeah, "Get out on the street."

Q. Did he say anything else to you?

A. I said -- he gestured toward me once. I responded that I had been instructed to remain on the sidewalk. He gestured toward me again. I asked him for his badge number.

Q. What did he say?

A. Nothing. He stared at me.

Q. Did the officer say anything to you other than get out in the street?

A. No.

Q. Did you say anything to him other than what you already told me?

A. Yeah, "Can I have your badge number?"

Q. All right. Did you say anything else to him?

A. "Can I have your badge number?"

Q. Twice you asked?

A. Twice.

Q. Say anything else to him?

A. No. Not to that particular officer, no.

Q. So the next thing that happened then --

A. I leaned in to write down his name on his badge since he was not forthcoming with his number.

Q. And what was his name?

A. K, period, Martin read his badge, M-a-r-t-i-n.

Q. Did you get a badge number?

A. There was no number apparent on his uniform.

Q. All right. What did you do when you got into the street?

A. Well, all of a sudden, there was a perimeter of policemen standing very tightly enclosing us.

Q. In which direction?

A. All directions. There was a perimeter.72 There was a circle --

Q. A ring of cops?

A. A ring of cops.

Q. I got you.

A. And so all of a sudden, I found myself a part of an encircled group, and I was on the perimeter. I was on the periphery. And I turn around, and there's cops all around, and there's a big group of protestors who seem to be protesting, and now, I am stuck.

Q. And then ultimately, you were arrested as part of this big group?

A. Yes. I inquired -- I mean, ultimately, yes. During the ultimately part of it, I was inquiring with policemen when I would be allowed to go free or what I was being held for, how it is I might come to leave.

Q. That's what I wanted to ask you about next. What I was trying to do is -- let me put it this way: Once you were surrounded by this perimeter of officers, I take it, then, you remained in that location until you were arrested and moved to another location by the police?

A. Yes, I remained standing in that location for -- it was over an hour and forty-five minutes.

Q. Before you were actually arrested and73 moved?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. During this hour and forty-five minutes --

A. No, no, no. It was at least an hour and forty-five minutes. It could have been more.

Q. Fine. Three days. I don't care.
However period of time it was, before you were physically moved out of that location, how many police officers did you talk to?

A. I wrote down the badge number of K. Martin, with whom I had that initial exchange. I also wrote down the badge number -- I believe it was 470 or 476. I have it in the notes that are posted on the Internet -- of another officer who was more civil, barely, with me, not at all forthcoming with information or relief, but at least telling me he -- that I had to wait. And those were about the only two police people with whom I had exchanges.
I think the second person was a sergeant. He was standing behind a row of cops and urging them to repel any attacks or, you know, this Pattonesque kind of strange militaristic paranoia. We are standing there waiting to be free, and he is telling them to repel all freak invaders, literally "freak invaders."

Q. Maybe he plays -- in any event -- okay.
So tell me if I got this correct here. From the point that you were pushed onto the street up to the point of your arrest, you had contact with three officers, K. Martin, this sergeant and this other --

A. The initial officer who told me to stay on the -- no. I'm sorry. The third officer is what?

MR. SANDOVAL: Let me ask it again.

MR. CAPITINA: Counsel, let me just pose an objection. You indicated that he was pushed into the street. Coerced into the street.

MR. SANDOVAL: Whatever.

MR. CAPITINA: I think it's important for the record.

Q. From the time that you got into the street on Landers, from that point up to the point where you were arrested and physically moved off of the site, according to my notes, and correct me if I'm wrong, you had contact with essentially three police officers. There was K. Martin, the one who told you to get into the street. There was this sergeant who referred to the freak invaders, and there was another officer, either 470 or 476.

A. No, the -- the last two are the same. The75 sergeant -- I believe it was -- the sergeant is 476, and he answered my questions and rallied his troops.

Q. Okay. Now, did your contact with K. Martin begin and end with the exchange that you already told me about?

A. Yes.

Q. And once you were in the street, in Landers Street, you had no further contact with K. Martin?

A. No.

Q. So the next officer you had contact with before actually being arrested was this sergeant?

A. Yes.

Q. Badge number 470, 476?

A. I'm not at all clear on that number. I have it somewhere.

Q. Okay. I understand.
But whatever the number is, they are the same person, right?

A. Yes, that's correct.

MR. CAPITINA: You guys are starting to talk over. Make sure he has finished his question before you commence your answer.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Did you have any conversation with this sergeant? Did you actually talk to him?

MR. CAPITINA: Other than what he's just indicated?

MR. SANDOVAL: Well, he told me what the sergeant said, but it's not clear to me that he actually talked to him.

THE WITNESS: I think I said -- I'll say it again. Something along the lines of, "When can I go home?"
"I'm sorry. We don't know what's going on. You just have to wait."
"Can I get out of here?"
"No. I'm sorry. We are waiting for orders," or something like that.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Did you say anything else to him?

A. "Boy, this is really weird, isn't it?" You know, I don't know. I tried to commiserate with him. I felt, you know, that -- I was trying to. It was my feeling at the time that it was a absurd event for all parties involved, and so I think I tried to make reference to that with this person as well.

Q. My question is did you say anything else to him?

A. Well, I do not at this time recall77 specific remarks.

Q. Did he say anything else to you other than what you have already told me?

A. No. As I said, he was civil and to the point.

Q. Now, during this entire time that you are surrounded by these police officers here (indicating) and before you were physically arrested, did any police officer physically touch you in any way?

A. No.

Q. Now, what were you -- during this hour and forty-five minutes or longer, however long a time period it was, from the time you were surrounded by police officers up to the time you were physically arrested, what were you doing?

A. That's a long time. And it was generally clear that we were not to sit down because people who sat down were dragged off, so --

Q. Just watching, observing and taking notes basically?

A. I was -- well, I was thrust from the position of an observer to a kind of pig, penned, so I walked around the perimeter of the crowd, looked at the policemen, asked this sergeant when I might leave, sang songs with the crowd. I started78 a chant that said -- this was after at least an hour. "The longer you keep us here, the weirder this gets." That was my chant. So I think some three or four people joined me, and we did that for a little while. Think I -- I watched some people drum, talked to some people about San Francisco, told somebody my web site address, tried to figure out what was happening, listened to rumors that the crowd was spreading, took some notes, killed time.

Q. Just waited?

A. Yeah, but it's a strange sort of waiting because it's interminable. You have no -- I had no clear idea when anything was going to happen, what was supposed to happen. I had no idea of anything. Sort of in limbo. I just had no -- why were these people surrounding us? Why was I being prevented from leaving, and when was this going to change and towards what end? All very weird.

Q. Did you ever meet a fellow named Richard Press?

A. No, not during that time. I met him on the phone after the incident occurred.

Q. Afterwards. Have you talked to Mr. Press at any time within the last year?

A. No.

Q. All right. So let's get up to the point then where you are actually arrested. I assume, but correct me if I'm wrong, an officer approached you and --

A. No, there was a line of people being farmed out.

Q. Okay.

A. So I got in line. I kind of got in line towards the beginning because it seemed like, well, you know, you let 20 people go by, and it's clear they are just arresting everybody, so might as well get in line because at least you get to sit down after you're arrested.

Q. Oh, let me ask you something, by the way, before I get to that.
During the time that you were waiting to be arrested, did you see any torches in the crowd?

A. No, I mean that's all -- most of the signs of protest had dissipated. Very shortly after surrounding, the protest moved from being about liberty and justice for all to being about liberty and justice for the people involved to being a celebration of the absurdity of the collection.

Q. Did you see any torches being passed around?

A. No, I think somebody lit somebody else's cigarette. That's about as close as we got.80

Q. Did you see any -- did you see anybody try to break into any buildings to get away from the police?

A. No.

Q. See anybody throw anything at the police?

A. I don't recall at this time seeing anything thrown at the police.

Q. Did you throw anything at the police?

A. Hot air.

Q. Anything else?

A. No, nothing I threw at the police.

Q. See any fireworks going off, anything like that?

A. In my head. No, no fireworks. Sorry.

MR. CAPITINA: Just answer the question.


MR. TAMBURELLO: I know you are trying to be funny because this is a long, tedious event, but he's serious, and he's asking that question because, you know, you got charged with arson. So you have to answer the question --

THE WITNESS: Straightforwardly.

MR. TAMBURELLO: -- whether or not you saw fires or whatever because that's serious.

THE WITNESS: No, that's right. Okay.

MR. TAMBURELLO: I'm sorry to interrupt.81

MR. SANDOVAL: I appreciate it. That's fine. Okay. All right.

Q. So anyway, eventually, you got in some line that you understood at the time was a line to get arrested, correct?

A. And people who were in the line were put in the handcuffs, taken away.

Q. So when your turn came in line, I assume you stepped up, and you were handcuffed?

A. I stepped up. There were two officers standing there. I think one of them had a clipboard, and he said something to me that I did not understand, and then I was very quickly moved off to another place. What he said was something along the lines of you are being something for something.

MR. CAPITINA: Slow down.

THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry.

MR. CAPITINA: She can't take it down.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Did you understand that he was telling you that you were being arrested for a certain thing?

A. Yeah, I was being charged. I think it might have been charged or arrested or something. That was the verb. But what it was was too quickly muttered and not entirely clear.

Q. Now, at this point that this officer told you that, had you been handcuffed yet?

A. No. Then I was handcuffed and Polaroided (phonetic).

Q. Do you know who the officer was who handcuffed you?

A. No, I have no idea.

Q. Okay. Were you handcuffed with those plastic --

A. Yes, yes, yes, like you do a trash bag.

MR. CAPITINA: Again, Justin, wait until he's finished his question.

MR. SANDOVAL: Thank you. Appreciate that.

Q. You were handcuffed behind your back?

A. Handcuffed behind my back, that's correct.

Q. And they took a little Polaroid snap of you?

A. I believe they took two.

Q. Two. Okay.
Held a little board in front of you?

A. They held it because my hands were behind my back.

Q. Now, during this process where you were -- officer said something to you about charges, photographed, handcuffed, did any police officer83 hit you, slap you, kick you, hit you in any way, other than putting the handcuffs on you and pushing you over to the side?

A. Besides the unnecessary tightness of the handcuffs, I was not mishandled.

Q. Okay. What happened then after the -- after your picture was taken?

A. I was put on a Muni bus to be filled with prisoners.

Q. And you sat there for some period of time?

A. On my hands.

Q. For how long, do you know?

A. All told, there was more than 40 minutes of sitting on the bus, but I can't -- we waited there for the bus to be loaded. Then we moved the bus, and then we waited for quite a while at Bryant Street. And so I don't recall all the time involved in that part of the exercise.

Q. And did you take -- did you eventually take this bus to the Hall of Justice at Bryant Street?

A. I didn't take it.

Q. Well, obviously, you didn't drive.

A. Sorry. I was taken in the bus to Bryant Street.

MR. SANDOVAL: Let me just say something, Mr. Hall. I mean this with all due respect. You know my question. Don't jerk my chain, okay? I know you didn't drive the bus, and that wasn't my question. So let's not play games here. Let's get this thing done.

MR. CAPITINA: I object. I find that very argumentative. He is answering your questions --

MR. SANDOVAL: I know he's answering my questions. You know what's going on here. And I don't appreciate getting jerked around, okay?

MR. CAPITINA: No one is jerking you around, Mr. Sandoval.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. So let me --

MR. CAPITINA: Wait a minute. If you ask the question, he is going to answer it directly. If you use the wrong -- you ask a question. You told him to answer your question, and he's doing so.

MR. SANDOVAL: Okay. Thank you.

MR. TAMBURELLO: And if I might just say, for the record, I think what's happening, this is becoming a little bit longer than it needs to be. And in essence, there is a lot of like, "How many feet from here? Well, how many feet from there?" And it is getting a little tedious, and I think we all just need to take a few deep breaths and just continue, and I think we'll get there.

MR. SANDOVAL: I appreciate that.

MR. TAMBURELLO: You're welcome.
(Discussion off the record.)
(Recess taken.)

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Now, during the time you were on the bus, in other words, from the time you were put on the bus until the time you get off the bus, did you have any contact with any police officers?

A. Yes. I was seated in the front of the bus, and there was a police officer standing there.

Q. You don't know -- do you know who that was?

A. I might have written down his name in my notes.

Q. Do you have any recollection of -- as you sit here now, do you recollect the name of --

A. I believe he was Hispanic or Latino. I think his name was Latino.

Q. Do you remember his name?

A. I do not at this time recall his name.

Q. Or badge number?

A. I do not at this time recall his badge number.

Q. Can you describe him physically for me?86

A. I believe he had a mustache.

Q. Let me ask you this: Did you have any -- did you have any conversation with this officer?

A. Absolutely.

Q. What did you say to him? What did he say to you?

A. I think -- it is my recollection that we discussed the -- again, the absurd nature of the arrest, that I didn't see how it was that I came to be a party to this, that I wanted to know how it was that I could be set apart from the group and to be processed differently, and a general argument concerning human detention ensued between him and I and other members of the bus.

Q. Remember what he said to you?

A. Very little of worth.

Q. Tell me what you remember him saying.

A. Basically, he led me to believe that he had very little authority over anything that had happened and that -- I think he at one point deferred to God as his ultimate authority for the person he was responsible to answering to.

Q. Tell me what he said if you remember.

A. I do not at this time recall more than I have said.

MR. CAPITINA: I believe he is just giving you the gist.

MR. SANDOVAL: All right.
Q. Now, during the time -- strike that. Let me start over again.
Was he the only officer you had any conversation with while you were on the bus?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, during the entire time when you were on the bus, from the time you first get on until the time you were taken off the bus at the Hall of Justice, did you have any physical -- I'm sorry.
Did any police officer strike you or touch you in any way?

A. No.

Q. Let me ask, actually, a broader question here, and this might shorten up some of my questions. I understand you were strip-searched at the jail, is that right?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Putting that aside, putting the strip- search aside, from the time you got on the bus until the time you were bailed out and left jail, did any police officer, sheriff's deputy slap you around, hit you, kick you, do anything that you considered to be use of force against you?

A. Physical?88

Q. Yes, physical.

A. I was not physically contacted by a police officer during my jail based incarceration.

Q. Now, there were verbal things. There were things said to you, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. The thing I want to make sure is that there is no claim here that some officer or some deputy slapped you around or something.

A. Inside 8th and Bryant, I was not touched --

Q. Okay. Good. Thank you. All right.

A. -- by officers in a physically threatening manner.

Q. Okay. Fair enough.
Taking this thing in sequence, hopefully, the bus is driven to the Hall of Justice, and you were physically taken off the bus?

A. I believe we were allowed to walk of our own recognizance with our hands still restrained to a hold -- to a waiting area.

Q. Do you remember where this waiting area was?

A. I think we waited outside of the building. The people were taken off in staged groups. I was taken off -- I was part of a small group that they89 said, "Okay. You can go over there." We stood there. The doors were opened. We went inside. We waited in a concrete corridor. I believe my cuffs were removed. I was put against wall, frisked, and then asked to or encouraged to enter a holding cell.

Q. So at the point that you actually entered the building, it was then that the handcuffs were taken off?

A. I think there's a period where I waited some, and then the hands were removed, that's right.

Q. Were you ever handcuffed at any point after that time?

A. I believe I was not.

Q. Now, did you suffer any injury from being handcuffed?

MR. CAPITINA: Could you clarify injury? Physical injury?

MR. SANDOVAL: Yes. Right.

THE WITNESS: For the duration of the handcuffing, my left index finger, I believe, it was numb. It hurt. It ached. My wrist ached for some period thereafter.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. How long a period?

A. I think by the time I was liberated, my90 hands no longer had pain.

Q. By the time that you were released from jail, did you feel -- did your hands feel and your fingers feel back to normal?

A. Fine.

Q. Have you in any way sought any kind of medical treatment for any injuries that you believe were caused -- physical injuries caused by the arrest or the time you spent in jail?

A. I've had immense trouble with my hands in the last year, but I think that's due in primary part to my occupation. I did not seek medical attention immediately following my jail time.

Q. Is this immense trouble you are talking about, you referring to immense trouble, you believe is due to your work on the computer, your work on the keyboard?

A. Yes, that aggravates it. The computer work aggravates the pain.

Q. Has any medical person told you that this trouble that you are experiencing with your hands has anything to do with being handcuffed or arrested on June 26th, '95?

A. No.
I saw a medical person who was more preventive minded than cause minded. In other91 words, this person prescribed future behaviors as opposed to looking at my case history.

Q. But my question is has any medical person told you, any medical person told you that whatever trouble you are experiencing with your hands was caused in whole or in part by being handcuffed and/or arrested on June 26th, '95?

A. At the time that I saw this particular doctor about my hands, I did not inform him of the handcuffing.

MR. CAPITINA: The question he is asking is did the doctor tell you that --


MR. SANDOVAL: Q. The question is any medical person told you --

A. No.

Q. All right. Thank you.
Now, when you were taken off the bus and brought into this building, did you have to go up an elevator or flight of stairs or . . . ?

A. This I do not recall right now.

Q. When you entered the building, where was the first stop that you made?

A. Outside -- we stopped the bus outside the building in a large drive, concrete area. It drove a little further, and we exited, I believe, and92 then waited in the rear, in the rear of the building outside a door. And then I believe I entered a corridor. In that corridor were a number of little concrete holding cells, and that was the first place that I resided for a significant time at 8th and Bryant.

Q. You were put in a holding cell along with other people?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. And were the handcuffs removed at that point?

A. They were removed outside of the holding cell so that I could be spread against the wall.

Q. They do a pat search of your clothing?

A. Yes.

Q. How long were you in the holding cell for?

A. I do not recall, but it was more than an hour, and there were more people in the holding cell than there should have been.

Q. Did anything happen to you in the holding cell from a physical standpoint? In other words, did you get into any kind of physical altercation or problem with anyone in the holding cell?

A. I did not, no. No physical.

Q. Where is the next place you went to after the holding cell?93

A. I went up to the counter to be relieved of my possessions, and then I was put in another holding cell within eyeshot of the first holding cell.

Q. When you say relieved of your possessions, they took your wallet, your watch, belt, things like that?

A. My ring. I was wearing a ring. And they took a notebook and pens.

Q. You still had your clothes on, though?

A. Yes, thankfully.

Q. All right. And so after they relieved you of your possessions, you went back into another holding cell?

A. Yes, a different holding cell.

Q. How long were you in that one?

A. I do not recall, but it was more than an hour.

Q. While you were in that holding cell, did anything happen to you as far as getting into any kind of physical altercation?

A. No, no physical altercations happened in those cells.

Q. Where is the next place you were moved to?

A. From there, I believe I was extracted from that cell, taken up to -- taken up in an elevator94 to another floor, where I sat on the floor in a hallway for awhile while they restrained a woman who had obviously had too much of something. They manacled her to a pipe on the floor.
And then they took me to answer some questions, and then they put me in a -- I can say about the questions, but then they put me in another holding cell.

Q. And these questions are like, "Are you taking any drugs? Do you have any medical problems," questions like that?

A. "Are you gay?"

Q. Do you know why they asked you that question?

A. For -- well, to see if I had prescription medicine that I was going to die without, to see if I was at risk of O-D-ing while I was on their hands, and to see if I was -- I didn't understand the gay thing, but they did not want to answer any questions themselves.

Q. So after you were asked these questions, then you were put in another holding cell?

A. No, then I -- I believe I was strip-searched after that, and then I was put in a holding cell.

Q. Describe how the strip-search took place.95

A. Strip-search took place where they lined us -- okay. It's a room with a toilet in it, and there's two really tough cops. I mean they were just like buffed out, very strong, very cropped hair and very curt. And they order us to remove all of our clothes, and they took all of our clothes, and they went through all of our clothes. And I was trying to figure out how to be comfortable in this environment.
And they had me bend over and lift up my ball sack and cough so that I would force any razor blades out of my anus or what have you. And then I noticed that the toilet was filled with toilet things, so I flushed the toilet, and I received a rather stern, I believe excrementally oriented admonition to avoid flushing future toilets.

Q. During the course of the strip-search, did any of the officers physically touch you? Were they simply telling you what to do, and you complied?

A. I believe they might have touched my shoulder to move me. Nothing noticeably aggravating.

Q. Now, did the strip-search take place -- sorry.
Let me ask it this way: During the time96 that you were without clothes and being searched, were there others in the room with you?

A. Unclothed, yes. There were other mens (phonetic) without clothes in the same room.

Q. So kind of a group strip-search almost?

A. I think it was done in such a way that there were two people doing it at a time. And so there were people waiting, watching, and then you were -- and then, you know, one person was undressing, another person was undressing, and they were being searched, and then other people were waiting in the room to be strip-searched.

Q. But you were all in view of each other?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. And any females in the room at the time?

A. I do not recall that there were any women within sight.

Q. All right. After you were strip-searched, were you given your clothes back?

A. Yeah, I was given all of my clothes to put on.

Q. And I assume you put them on?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you go next?

A. I went into a larger holding cell that had non protest -- this was the first holding cell that97 had non protest prisoners in it.

Q. How long were you in that cell for?

A. A long time. More than -- I believe it was more than two hours.

Q. Did anything happen in that holding cell, I mean in terms of any injury to you?

A. Like I said -- I don't recall whether I said this or not, but I saw some very strange things, but I was never physically touched, violated, what have you.

Q. Had you made any phone calls at this point?

A. I was initially processed --

MR. CAPITINA: Excuse me. I am sorry.
The point in time that he was put in this latest holding cell that you were talking about?


THE WITNESS: I believe -- I was processed in the very -- I believe I was put in the bus sometime after 10:00 o'clock, and I believe that I was -- and so it was -- I did not want to call during the --

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Late hours?

A. -- the late hours, did not want to call. And plus, I had nothing to tell anyone. I had no -- I still had no idea what it was that I was charged with. Nobody could tell me that.

MR. CAPITINA: The question was did you make a call?

THE WITNESS: I had nothing to tell anybody that I could have called by that point. I think I did make a call, but it was after that point.

MR. SANDOVAL: Let me change the question just slightly.

Q. Could you have made a call had you wanted to?

A. Yes, there were phones available in all the cells, except the last one was monopolized by some very tough looking hombres.

Q. So you weren't going to be --

A. Make any calls.

Q. Okay. I understand. All right.
So after being put in the latest holding cell, where is the next place you moved to?

A. I moved to an office that was in view from the holding cell. There was an office adjacent. And in there, I was moved and shuttled from table to table.

Q. In that office there?

A. (Witness nods head.)

Q. People asking you questions and getting99 information from you?

A. That's correct. I was --

Q. Okay. All right.
And after you went through that process, were you -- I'm sorry?

A. I want to make an observation. I was at this point first allowed to ask someone about my -- this was the first opportunity after at least 10 or 11 hours when I was able to find out what it was that I was being charged with.

Q. Somebody told you?

A. I -- I kept asking. This was the first person who knew. I was being charged with felony attempted arson, inciting a riot, and jaywalking, and I was very astounded. I asked what my bail was, and nobody knew. And so he went and asked somebody or something, and I was told it was $10,000. I was really blown away by that.

Q. So after you went through the process of going from table to table, people asking you questions --

A. Taking my fingerprints, all that stuff, picture.

Q. -- picture, where did you go next?

A. I believe I went from there to my cell or through staging areas where I was given toiletries and sent to a cell.

Q. When you say a cell, you talking about a cell just -- just you alone in there or with other people?

A. There were -- I believe there were 28 bunks.

Q. Like a dormitory type thing?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Okay. How long did you stay in that location?

A. I don't recall. Long enough to sleep, wake up, watch T.V., play chess, use the bathroom.

Q. And did you remain in that -- let's call it a dormitory for want of a better word. Or call it the room with the bunks in it. How's that?

A. Yeah. Sure.

Q. Did you stay in that room for that entire evening, in other words, spent the night there and got up the next morning in that same place?

A. I was processed. When I said I was in the room being shuttled between tables was sometime, I think, after 9:00 a.m. I had spent the night in holding cells. And so I took a nap in the morning with the first contact with anything sleepable, and then I set about calling people I think shortly thereafter.

Q. In other words, at the time you were brought to this room with all the bunks, it was around the morning of the next day?

A. It was, I think, already 10:00 or 11:00 in the morning of the next day.

Q. Of the 27th?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. All right.

A. Two hundred and seventy-eight is a lot of people.

Q. All right. Did you get to make a call then at that time in the morning?

A. Yeah, I think I called from the room where I was being shuttled from table to table, and then I -- and then I called further from my cell.

Q. Who did you call?

A. At first, I believe I was allowed to make a call that they paid for -- I'm not totally clear -- a local call in the room where I was being shuttled. I called -- I have one friend who has an answering machine, that I knew that I could leave a message, and she would get it. So I called her. Her name is Ann Hess, H-e-s-s, A-n-n, and I left her a message, I think with my -- I knew by then my case number and my -- you know, where I was and what was happening. And I gave her my mother's phone number and my family in Chicago so that they could be reached.

Q. Did you call anyone else?

A. I called people from my cell, and now, at this time, I do not recall directly who I called or in what order. But I believe from jail, I spoke to either my mother or my brother and that they let me know that my friend from San Francisco, Ann, had already called and that my family was finding out what was happening and was going to try and bail me out.

Q. Did you call your stepbrother?

A. I did not call him directly, no. I believe I did not call him directly.

Q. At some point, though, he showed up and bailed you out?

A. Yes. I don't recall -- I don't believe that I ever actually saw him. I think he came in and paid the money, and he had to go because he had a job.

Q. Then you were told you were free to go?

A. Well, then I was extracted from the cell and processed and was not allowed to get my possessions, I think, until either later on that day or the next day.

Q. Let me just back up for a minute, if I could, just to do this chronologically.
You were put into this dormitory, if you will --

A. Dormitory cell.

Q. -- cell the morning of the 27th?

A. Yeah.

Q. You spent -- you spent the whole day there?

A. I spent, I think, until the late afternoon there.

Q. Then were you taken to court?

A. No, I was told -- we -- we were not told -- nobody told us anything. None of the officers knew anything or came forward with any information.
There were rumors flying around that we were going to be set free, that we were all going to go sit in jail for a few weeks, that we were going to be tried on Friday. That was the ultimate -- a lawyer came from some activist organization and told us. So I had no idea when I would be going to trial.

Q. Let me try to shorten this up if I could.
When were you released?

A. I was released in the late afternoon.

Q. Of the 27th?

A. Of the 27th. My stepbrother posted bail.

Q. So would I be correct, then, to assume that from the time that you were put into this cell with all the bunk beds, you remained in that location until you were released later that afternoon; is that fair?

A. That is fair.

Q. And then when you were released from jail, where did you go?

A. I couldn't go very far because I didn't -- they wouldn't give me my wallet, my keys, my notebook, my pen, my ring, anything.

Q. Your property?

A. They wouldn't give me my property, so I think I left the building.
There were a number of people outside who were very excited about what was happening inside, and so I spoke to them about their -- I didn't know their friends, but I told them what had happened to me and that the same thing had probably happened to their friends. I spoke with them, and then returned for my property and went to see if my car had been towed, which it had not.

Q. Lucky.

A. Lucky me. Then I addressed myself to trying to find some food and my friends and kind of get settled, collect myself.

Q. Did you eventually get your property back?

A. I got my property back, I believe, that evening.

Q. All of it?

A. Yes. There was nothing missing.

Q. Did you miss any work as a result of this?

A. Yes.

Q. How much work did you miss?

A. Well, I missed -- I work in the evening. I missed from, you know, 6:00 or 7:00 o'clock until -- I missed 24 hour -- a 24-hour period.
And then, of course, I had to spend a lot of time afterwards on the phone calling the D.A.'s office trying to get my record expunged and realizing that I had to meet with lawyers, all that stuff. So I lost time there.

Q. How much work did you miss through all that? Do you have any idea?

A. I don't have an estimate at this time of the amount of work I missed. Due to the nature of my work, it's not a punch in and punch out. It's more like I can work for quite a number of hours at my -- my own pace, my own . . . .

Q. I am just trying to figure out if you lost any pay as a result of . . . .

A. Well, sure. I mean in that time, I could have written two articles, three articles.

Q. You ever figure out how much pay you lost?

A. I was a free -- I'm a freelance writer, so pay depends on so many factors. I have been paid as much as a dollar a word, and if I think of all the words I could have written during the time that I have spent dealing with this, that would be a lot of dollars.

Q. The question, though, is have you ever sat down to calculate? Have you ever sat down yourself for the purpose of calculating how much money you lost, if any, as a result of this incident?

A. I have not sat down and done that to date.

Q. Have you sought any kind of treatment, be it medical treatment, psychiatric treatment, counseling of any kind for any of the mental or emotional trauma that you believe you suffered as a result of this incident?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever have to appear in court at any time to deal with the charges that had been placed against you?

A. No. I believe within a week, I was pursuing the D.A.'s office over the phone and pursing the story in the local papers, and the charges were dropped within a number of days after.

Q. Did you have to make an appearance in court for the purpose of getting your record expunged?

A. As I was in college in Swarthmore, Pennsylvania, my lawyers took care of it for me.

Q. How much did you have to pay your lawyers to take care of that?


MR. TAMBURELLO: That's part of his damages.


THE WITNESS: Thirty-five hundred bucks. I didn't pay them that yet, but that's the fee.


Q. Have you had to pay any other -- aside from whatever you might be paying your lawyers in this case, putting that aside, have you had to pay any other -- have you had to incur any other expenses to deal with this arrest and the aftermath of the arrest?

A. This trip. I am here in San Francisco now, not solely for this reason, but I could say that it is one of the motivating factors for spending the money to come to San Francisco is to discharge this hopefully once and for all.

Q. Did you register a complaint with the Office of Citizen Complaints?

A. Yes, I believe I did.

Q. Did you give a taped statement to the Office of Citizen Complaints?

A. I don't recall doing that, no.

Q. Did anybody interview you?

A. I recall giving a statement to the Office of Citizen Complaints. I recall pursuing that, but I believe it was a form that I filled out and mailed with some of the notes from the Internet.

Q. Did anyone call you or take a taped interview of you?

MR. CAPITINA: From the --

MR. SANDOVAL: Office of Citizen Complaints.

THE WITNESS: I do not at this point recall what came of that.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Has anyone taken a taped or recorded statement from you about what happened?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. A number of reporters outside of the -- outside of the jail.

Q. Television reporters?

A. Yes. Because I was one of the first people to be bailed.

Q. You and Michael Parenti?

A. That's right. Or we were the ones who wanted to yammer about it.

Q. Other than that, have you given a tape recorded statement to anyone?

A. I was --

MR. CAPITINA: Other than to his attorneys?

MR. SANDOVAL: Well, I'd like to include that. I'm not going to ask the content, but I want to find out if that exists.

THE WITNESS: A taped or recorded?


THE WITNESS: I was taped on a radio program as well.

MR. SANDOVAL: Q. Do you know which one it was?

A. No.

Q. Here in the Bay Area?

A. Yeah. And other than that, I don't think -- let me put it this way: I have been interviewed since that time on unrelated topics. I might have alluded to my arrest or made remarks about it, but no sustained narrative.

Q. Okay. I understand.
Have you given any kind of written statement to anyone about what happened, other than the O-C-C complaint, other than posting your notes on the Internet? Give any kind of written statement to anyone?

A. Apart from the notes that are on the Internet, no.

MR. SANDOVAL: All right. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: That's it?

THE REPORTER: Mr. Capitina, would you like a copy?

MR. CAPITINA: Yes, please.

THE REPORTER: Mr. Tamburello, would you like a copy?

MR. TAMBURELLO: No, just the one.

MR. SANDOVAL: I would.

(Whereupon, the deposition concluded
at 11:55 a.m.)




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